Do we see Calvinists as Christians?

[Valz]

To understand first how they see us, consider the following:

1845 Old School Presbyterian General Assembly
"The so-called priest of the Romish communion are not ministers of Christ, for they are commissioned as agents of the papal hierarchy, which is not a Church of Christ, but the Man of Sin, apostate from the truth, the enemy of righteousness and of God. She has long lain under the curse of God, who has called his people to come out from her, that they be not partakers of her plagues.

It is the unanimous opinion of all the Reformed churches, that the whole papal body, though once a branch of the visible church, has long since become utterly corrupt, and hopelessly apostate.

[…] the rite they call baptism, is not, in any sense, to be regarded as valid Christian Baptism.

[…] True religion and an intelligent adherence to papal Rome are utterly incompatible and impossible. The Church and the papacy are the repelling poles of the moral system."

...

The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter XXV: Of the church
"VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God."

...

For them, a Catholic who follows Catholicism may be a Christian if he simply doesn't knows better, but Catholicism itself is anti-Christian. This said, I wonder, what is the general opinion among Catholics of Calvinists? I think I read once that we consider their Baptism valid, but even an atheist can validly Baptize, so I don't think that amounts to much. Do we see them as separated brethren, Christians who despite being in error nontheless believe in many true things? Or as outright heretics who are not Christians?


Valz

[StrictCatholicGirl]

Both Christian and heretic. A Christian Heretic. St. Thomas Aquinas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas".

[Valz]

Both Christian and heretic. A Christian Heretic. St. Thomas Aquinas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas".

Hmmm, it seems to me that this would apply to someone who had previously embraced the Catholic faith and then later corrupted it's dogmas. This could apply to someone like Calvin and Luther, but I doubt we can say the same of every Calvinist today. The Catechism has the following definition of heresy:

2089 "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same"

The keyword "obstinate" I think is important. It means that while Calvinism itself is a heresy, not all Calvinist are necessarily heretics, specially if they are born into a family of Calvinists and are raised in that faifh (St. Augustine says something along these lines). Of course, I think that having such anti-Catholic views as part of their confessions may well count as an obstinate denial of the Catholic faith. So it may change things somewhat.

[StrictCatholicGirl]

Yes, I was thinking of Luther and Calvin. Vetus Ordo (a member here at FE) would point out that in the days of the Inquisiton, heretics (Christians) were under the jurisdiction of the Church.

I believe that Calvinists today are Christians (but separated) if they have a valid baptism and follow the articles of the Creed - the fundamentals: belief in the Trinity and the divinity of Christ, the virgin birth, the resurrection of the dead.

Of course, all Protestantism is error. But there comes a line when some simply can no longer be called Christians in the traditional sense; such as those who deny Christ's divinity or do not believe in baptism. Jehovah's Witnesses and Quakers would fall under this category. But Calvinists would not.

However, if Calvinists RE-baptize they reject the article of the Creed which says "ONE baptism for the forgiveness of sins." That might make a difference.

[Credo]

Yes, Calvinists are Christians. They are in material heresy because most were never professed members of the Catholic Church. There is also something called formal heresy, but Calvinists - indeed most Protestant folk - generally don't fall into that category, and haven't since the Reformation.

[Valz]

I believe that Calvinists today are Christians (but separated) if they have a valid baptism and follow the articles of the Creed - the fundamentals: belief in the Trinity and the divinity of Christ, the virgin birth, the resurrection of the dead.

Yes, I consider them Christians as well (even if they don't think the same about us). They have a sound Christology and view of God /the Trinity. They embrace the nicene creed (and one baptism) and they also hold to covenantial as opposed to dispensational theology. There are of course many strong differences where they fall into error, but I don't think these would disqualify them as Christians or put them on the same level as Mormons and other fringe groups.

[Valz]

Yes, Calvinists are Christians. They are in material heresy because most were never professed members of the Catholic Church. There is also something called formal heresy, but Calvinists - indeed most Protestant folk - generally don't fall into that category, and haven't since the Reformation.

Yep, the distinction of material and formal heresy is very much what I was alluding to in my previous post. Thanks for your response

[kimbaichan]

With the emphasis on "one baptism", what about groups that don't believe that?

[StrictCatholicGirl]

With the emphasis on "one baptism", what about groups that don't believe that?

Right, I wonder too. Baptists, Pentecostals, and most nondenominational groups will "re-baptize" those coming into their fold who were previously baptized as an infant. It seems to contradict the Creed, as well as St. Paul's words in Ephesians: One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.

But since they don't recognize the validity of infant baptism, the "believers baptism" counts as ONCE.

[Valz]

Calvinists do not seem to recognize the Catholic baptism as valid. So I assume that they would rebaptize a Catholic who converts to Calvinism. Not sure how accurate this is, but given the quote I posted in the OP, I think it is certain that they would do this.