Do we see Calvinists as Christians?

[kimbaichan]

Baptists, Pentacostals and non-denoms(which IMO are a combination of the former two groups) will rebaptize a person a much as they want, since Baptism is only a symbol it can be done multiple times.

[Satori]

Might it not depend on the particular Calvinist group? (That is, whether or not they rebaptize.) They don't all adhere to the Westminster Confession with the same degree of strictness, it seems.

I know Calvinists pretty well, having been raised as one and having Calvinist in-laws. They are a sad case, in my view, because Calvinism seems to attract many fine minds (not as fine as some of those attracted to Catholicism, perhaps, but still high up there), they are serious about their faith, they are stalwart, they have many excellent virtues, and some of the best Christians I've encountered have been Calvinists, as far as works go, which is highly ironic. But then they have this theology that is not just flawed, it is offensive. It is vile. I've never been able to understand how the "Moloch god" of Calvin (as Hilaire Belloc accurately said) can attract so many good, intelligent people.

[StrictCatholicGirl]

Calvinists do not seem to recognize the Catholic baptism as valid. So I assume that they would rebaptize a Catholic who converts to Calvinism. Not sure how accurate this is, but given the quote I posted in the OP, I think it is certain that they would do this.

John MacArthur of Grace Community Church in CA is a Hyper-Calvinist who does not believe that Catholic baptism is valid. On the radio broadcast, live from the church, they "re-baptized" former Catholics with glee, after the initiated gave a testimony about how liberating it was to leave the superstition of Catholicism and find Christ at last. Sickening.

[Valz]

John MacArthur of Grace Community Church in CA is a Hyper-Calvinist who does not believe that Catholic baptism is valid. On the radio broadcast, live from the church, they "re-baptized" former Catholics with glee, after the initiated gave a testimony about how liberating it was to leave the superstition of Catholicism and find Christ at last. Sickening.

Sickening indeed and the whole anti-Catholic mindset that seems to go hand in hand with it was the main reason why I was led to ask if we view Calvinists as Christians.

[Valz]

Might it not depend on the particular Calvinist group? (That is, whether or not they rebaptize.) They don't all adhere to the Westminster Confession with the same degree of strictness, it seems.

Probably, but it would seem that Presbyterians are the largest and more prominent Calvinists and, at least going by the two sources I posted, they would not consider Catholic baptism to be valid or the Catholic Church as Christian. I know that the part from The Westminster Confession of Faith which I quoted was trimmed by some groups, leaving out the part "but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God", but this still does not rules out the Pope being antichrist. There is also the fact that they draw their beliefs from Calvin himself and he very much affirms that the Pope is antichrist, here is what he said in the Institutes:

"Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt... I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy."

[Valz]

This quote from St. Augustine was posted on another thread but I find that it is quite relevant to this subject:

Saint Augustine, Ex Enarratiónibus sancti Augustíni epíscopi in psalmos (Ps 32, 29: CCL 38, 272-273)
"Those then who tell us: You are not our brothers, are saying that we are pagans. That is why they want to baptise us again, claiming that we do not have what they can give. Hence their error of denying that we are their brothers. Why then did the prophet tell us: Say to them: You are our brothers? It is because we acknowledge in them that which we do not repeat. By not recognising our baptism, they deny that we are their brothers; on the other hand, when we do not repeat their baptism but acknowledge it to be our own, we are saying to them: You are our brothers.

If they say, “Why do you seek us? What do you want of us?” we should reply: You are our brothers. They may say, “Leave us alone. We have nothing to do with you.” But we have everything to do with you, for we are one in our belief in Christ; and so we should be in one body, under one head."

This illustrates perfectly the relationship we have with the Calvinists. We recognize their baptism but they do not recognize ours, yet we still consider them brethren whom we'd like to come into communion with The Church.


Valz

[StrictCatholicGirl]

Baptists, Pentacostals and non-denoms(which IMO are a combination of the former two groups) will rebaptize a person a much as they want, since Baptism is only a symbol it can be done multiple times.

I would think that once you are baptized into their sect, they would see no further need for multiple baptisms.

[StrictCatholicGirl]

Good catch, Valz!   Wow.

[cunctas_haereses]

I prefer this view.

[url]http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/m013rpProtestantsChristians.html[url]

so much for the link thing

[Valz]

I prefer this view.

[url]http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/m013rpProtestantsChristians.html[url]

so much for the link thing

The Church recognizes the baptism of several protestant groups as valid so these are to be counted as Christians, even if not in a complete and perfect manner.

Your link says: "No one who dissents from the Roman Catholic Church can be a Christian."

This could hold true of a formal as opposed to a material heretic. Not all protestants have joined and dissented from the Catholic Church.


Valz