Today's Mass

[Iuvenalis]

So, me and the fam' tried a new parish today.

For the last few years we've gone to a slightly unusual parish in my diocese, that I'm assured by an associate pastor is 'left alone' by the diocese to 'corral the crazies.'

Essentially, they made some concessions to traditional piety (not many actually, they didn't allow an indult TLM pre-Motu, we had to go to the one remaining indult in the adjacent county/diocese, which also got stamped out by that other bishop once the pastor retired, but I digress...) in order to 'contain' the 'kneelers' and such.

It was more than a little condescending, even insulting. Even the TLM at this parish was relegated to 630AM, which became quite another thing after my daughter was born. I'm not saying that no one pulls this off, just saying that it's an interesting statement to the Catholics that wish to worship in this way. I find it odd that in a diocese of 5 million Catholics (not people) there's 2 TLMs every Sunday (there's a few others, but are typically monthly). But I digress...

Well, I won't go into the reasons, maybe another time, but I started looking for 'Traditionalism' in the sense that it wasn't a concession, and/or where the priest wasn't forced to turn right around and celebrate a 'guitar mass' or whatever. Or where I had no sense whether one week 'my' parish was going to get cracked down on etc etc.

So, I took a look at the SSPX, which is seemingly surprisingly absent as well. I mean, they have a chapel, but it's Mass schedule and location were a bit interesting as well. I'm so surprised that the next nearest was 1.5 hours away (so 3 hours round trip) in a diocese this large, and with arguably the most liberal Abp in the US, I can't believe there's not more SSPX to 'serve' what must be legions of dispossessed 'trads' but I digress...

So, the actual point of this thread was to talk about our experience today, not the background. So, short-story-long (I'm sorry) we found an 'independent' chapel. I'm still not sure what this means. But I will say they're 'affiliated' in some fashion with the SSPX (I'm not sure what that means either), and have a non-negligible SSPX third order,and the priest talked about the great SSPX retreats for men in my confession. So, they're not SSPX, but they are 'kindred spirits' or something.

Anyway, I'd 'scoped' the location out a couple months back just to see if this was a toolshed in someone's backyard or what, so I wasn't surprised to see what could have passed for any Catholic parish, pre-Vatican II 'barn' aesthetic anyway. The grounds are fairly large, so the parishioners here must be fairly generous (I know many of the 'exiles' from that indult that got shut down after a pastor retired I mention above 'ended up' here) and/or well attended. I point this out because multiple times I've been told that a TLM simply couldn't 'support itself' or 'justify its existence' financially by various parish priests and mincing chancery henchmen. This is patently false. This is a parish supported, by definition, by its parishioners, with no 'diocese' to speak of. It's also beautiful and well-maintained. The parish I went to before (diocesan), you know, the one for the 'crazies'? It had no parish hall for 100+ years until about 5 years ago, and they're still paying the loan off to the diocese for that little luxury. They've also been passing around the hat for serious unrepaired roof leaks for the last 4 years (that I know of, possibly longer) to re-roof. So, where's the Diocese? Where's the help? Ostensibly a portion of the collections go to the 'poorer' parishes from those that take in plenty, but money clearly flows out of, and not into, this (let me tell you) poor parish.

Now, this wasn't easy. I was married in the parish I speak of (TLM). My daughter was baptized here (also in the 'old' rite), and this is where I first discussed with a wonderful traditional priest (diocesan! Who has since been transferred on) becoming a Catholic. I have significant emotional attachment to the 'old' parish, and absolutely zero problem with my old parish itself, but everything about the parish is a concession, purely at the pleasure of the Cardinal, completely indulging the fancies of the 'weirdos' as he sees us. However, every dollar in the collection plate is carved up, and precious little goes to this wonderful parish, it-of-the-horribly-leaky-roof (apparently). So, people like me leaving is no 'loss' in the sense that this parish's survival, being what it is, is not contingent upon us 'crazies' staying. I just wanted to say that I thought of this, i.e. myself being 'part of a problem' by "leaving." Basically, the parish mustn't get much from the collections, and a whole lot of that money (also apparently) went to paying massive, historic lawsuit settlements for the diocese-- the diocese that refuses to expunge itself of the cancerous, swishy, visibly effeminate priests that dominate the priesthood (I'm sorry to say) there. In spite of these settlements, the problem remains. It's also worth pointing out that this had nothing to do with my leaving. I bring it up to say that, when I continue to stay within the larger Church just for the sake of doing so, that is being part of the problem. IMO. YMMV.

So today...

We arrived way too early. I was just eager I guess. This ended up being very fortunate for us, as my wife forgot an item (not her veil!) and we had to kill some time anyway. So we re-returned and changed the baby (she's amazing at getting stuff on her clothes during a carride) into a proper Mass attire (we keep her in a onesy on the way since she'll inevitably spill some milk or something). While my wife handled that, I went in to 'scope' the grounds, see if there was a bookstore (there was!) and pick up a copy of the missal, and generally make sure the dress code was what we expected (it was, although I didn't see as many ties as I expected, but I like to wear a tie anyway). I really like the place. You may take a parish hall for granted, but I do not. I was glad to see one. I was glad to see some parishioners inside it, making use of it. There was the adjacent classrooms (there's a school) and a *great* bookstore. Once the prior Mass let out, everyone streamed out and lots of traditional garb, headcovers (of course), but not as many kids as I expected. Which brings me to...

So the next Mass, that's us...

Mass was a blast. Maybe I was just excited to be there. Maybe it was the quality of the priest's attention to my confession. I know you may also take for granted that a priest takes your confession seriously-- I do not. The priest was a great guy (and young!), and the homily was on point (if I do say so myself). Talking about the reality of Hell, sin, and particularly purgatory, is not what you hear typically from a NO priest. It was just great to hear Catholic Truth proclaimed from the pulpit, unapologetically (is this something Trads also take for granted?).

The only 'negative' which I'll get over, was my wife mentioned some old lady was giving her/us the 'stink eye' about our 2 year old. She was a slight bit harder to handle today. Usually, I'll have to take her outside at least once at this current age, and tell her to behave, etc etc. I don't think this is a big deal. I especially didn't think it'd be a big deal for trads, who generally have kids (at this Mass, there were hardly any, the previous Mass that let out had a decent amount-- we'll probably have to try to make that one). I mean, a screaming baby is one thing, a squirmy 2 year old who points at the crucifix and keeps stating the obvious, "Jesus"  is another. I mean, cut me some slack old battleaxe.

My wife took the girl out and Mom didn't get much "Mass" at Mass. I do wish she hadn't felt she needed to stay out, and it shouldn't happen again. If my daughter isn't screaming, and just being 2, I think I'm just going to have to let people deal.

Other than that, positive. I was happy, I think we'll keep going and see if this is the right way to go. Maybe I'm still hung up on the whole 'unity' thing and the 'visibility' marks (Matt 5:14-15) and that's why I'm not 100% certain? I mean, I have a hard time understanding how we can be fractious and still be "Catholic" and how this is any different that what Protestants do. However, the other part of me feels like I'm just stating the obvious. That is, Trads aren't welcome, they're 'tolerated' and usually they're not even tolerated. So I'm not leaving, the rest of the Church is or has departed from the Traditional Catholic Faith (IMO). I'm not 'un-Catholic,' I'm just 'Catholic,' and this indifferentism in the guise of ecumenism (unless you're a Traditional Catholic btw), the ecumenism itself, and the 'innovations' are the departure from the Faith, not the SSPX, not the Trads...

Your thoughts?

[mike6240]

I'm very glad for you and your family that you found a true Catholic parish which you like.  My experience was very similar.  I attended an "indult" Archdiocesan parish (both NO and TLM) although I never went to the NO service.  I was on the internet about 3 years ago and came across a traditional parish which only offers the TLM and the traditional Sacraments (no NO there) in a town about 45 mins drive away.  I asked my priest about it and he whispered to me, "Oh no, don't go there.  They're not part of the Catholic Church".  Hmmm....well, I re-read the website and they sounded as Catholic as they come.  They had purchased a closed Catholic church building (a beautiful Gothic confection) from a company who bought it from the Archdiocese (the Archdiocese was furious at this).  So I went one Sunday morning.  Yup, they're "independent" (from the Archdiocese) and as traditional Catholic as they come.  No felt banners, no NO table in the middle of the sanctuary (remember, in an indult parish you have to mentally block out the free standing NO table as Father is saying mass behind it at the High Altar) and no dancing girls.  Matter of fact, this was the first Catholic Mass I went to and actually saw the priest from the waist down without having a NO table blocking him.  This parish supports itself, is run by traditional Dominicans (who wear the full traditional Dominican habits - Sisters and Brothers) and has a vibrant youngish congregation.  The Archdiocese completely ignores us.  For Confirmation, we fly a bishop in from New Jersey.  We get about 75 to 100 on Sunday Mass.  So to make a long story short I am a tithing member of this Catholic parish now and wouldn't go anywhere else.

Edit:  I did my own "research" before I decided to stay at this parish just to make sure the priest is validly ordained.  Yup, he was.  Just make sure you ask the priest about his ordination before making a commitment - don't worry, he shouldn't mind you asking.  Some (although very few) independent parishes have priests who's ordination may be sketchy.  But then again, I consider anyone ordained in the Novus Ordo to be sketchy.  ;D

[Iuvenalis]

I'm very glad for you and your family that you found a true Catholic parish which you like.  My experience was very similar.  I attended an "indult" Archdiocesan parish (both NO and TLM) although I never went to the NO service.  I was on the internet about 3 years ago and came across a traditional parish which only offers the TLM and the traditional Sacraments (no NO there) in a town about 45 mins drive away.  I asked my priest about it and he whispered to me, "Oh no, don't go there.  They're not part of the Catholic Church".  Hmmm....well, I re-read the website and they sounded as Catholic as they come.  They had purchased a closed Catholic church building (a beautiful Gothic confection) from a company who bought it from the Archdiocese (the Archdiocese was furious at this).  So I went one Sunday morning.  Yup, they're "independent" (from the Archdiocese) and as traditional Catholic as they come.  No felt banners, no NO table in the middle of the sanctuary (remember, in an indult parish you have to mentally block out the free standing NO table as Father is saying mass behind it at the High Altar) and no dancing girls.  Matter of fact, this was the first Catholic Mass I went to and actually saw the priest from the waist down without having a NO table blocking him.  This parish supports itself, is run by traditional Dominicans (who wear the full traditional Dominican habits - Sisters and Brothers) and has a vibrant youngish congregation.  The Archdiocese completely ignores us.  For Confirmation, we fly a bishop in from New Jersey.  We get about 75 to 100 on Sunday Mass.  So to make a long story short I am a tithing member of this Catholic parish now and wouldn't go anywhere else.

Great post. I'm glad to hear someone else's experience was similar! Really! I guess it's not that unusual to observe the same things and people who come to this conclusion, end up doing the same thing.

It's great that they got a former Catholic parish. It's horribly sad to me that the diocese would be so furious (but unsurprising). I mean, when a parish becomes a gay club or a nightclub where all sorts of sexual sin takes place, they shrug it off, or what happened to St. Vibiana's in LA (before the construction of the LA concrete armadillo 'cathedral') and pictures of half a dozen other former beautiful Churches that are turned into the warehouses of the sins of the world now.

It's so telling how angry they get.

As I said earlier, anything, any Lutheran, Protestant (or muslim or even Voodoo priest if you're JPII) or Mason, ...anybody but a Trad Catholic.

Edit:  I did my own "research" before I decided to stay at this parish just to make sure the priest is validly ordained.  Yup, he was.  Just make sure you ask the priest about his ordination before making a commitment.  Some (although very few) independent parishes have priests who's ordination may be sketchy.  But then again, I consider any one ordained in the Novus Ordo to be sketchy.  ;D

He is validly ordained, by a bishop, he's addressed this in interviews and it can be found online. The only 'concern,' if any, would be his ordination would undoubtedly be in the NO. However, I've noticed the SSPX has some of this too (NO ordinations, I'm surprised they don't "re-ordain"). So yeah, the ordination research took place months ago. He's legit as far as that goes. The bishop that ordained him was pre-1955 I remember, so that bishop was legit, the only 'weak link' would be the NO ordination. I guess you'd get that in a diocesan TLM 100% of the time, by definition, though wouldn't you? 

[mike6240]

When I first started going to my "independent" traditional parish, one of the Dominican Brothers asked me to attend a Catechism class, which I did.  It was absolutely wonderful and I learned things about the Church I never knew before.  Most new comers to my parish are invited to attend catechism class if they intend to become a member (probably to deprogram all of the NO rubbish fed to us in previous parishes).  We have public recitation of the Rosary 1/2 hour before each Mass, Confession 50 minutes before each Mass (yes, the lines are long so you have to get to church early).  We have Benediction and Holy Hour on the second Saturday of each month.  Sung Mass is the norm on Sundays but we have full High Mass with incense on Holy Days.  We have a full contingent of altar servers (which I'm a part of) and a wonderful choir. 

So, again to make a long story short, my parish is a vibrant, active, growing and exceptional Catholic parish with very holy people.  And all the while, the Archdiocese wants nothing to do with us as they're closing NO parishes left and right.  Amazing isn't it?

[Scipio_a]

There are many indie Mass sites that have some sort of support from the SSPX.  The one in Richmond used to only have an SSPX priest come by to fill in when the local guy went on vacation and I thing the Bishops do confirmation and such...

They always seem to be solid from report as well as experience.  Since the SSPX is solid and would not likely have an agreement or support someone that was not solid.

Glad you found a place that looks good....hope the peopkle are as friendly as the parish in Richmond, VA.

[QuisUtDeus]

However, I've noticed the SSPX has some of this too (NO ordinations, I'm surprised they don't "re-ordain").

They review them on a case-by-case basis and sometimes conditionally ordain.  They don't blanket reject the new forms of the Sacraments.

[Stubborn]

However, I've noticed the SSPX has some of this too (NO ordinations, I'm surprised they don't "re-ordain").

They review them on a case-by-case basis and sometimes conditionally ordain.  They don't blanket reject the new forms of the Sacraments.

True.
We just had a priest, (maybe 33 years old) who recently left the NO celebrate the Holy Sacrifice and, far as I have heard, the SSPX is basically only helping and mentoring him while they keep an eye on him. I'm pretty sure they at least have the NO priests who are coming aboard go through some seminary training before they cut 'em loose.

From the pulpit, the priest said that he had just received a call from one of his NO superiors telling him that he was excommunicated for joining the SSPX.   

[Iuvenalis]

Excommunicated? From what, and by whom?

[AndreasAngelopolitanus]

So, I took a look at the SSPX, which is seemingly surprisingly absent as well. I mean, they have a chapel, but it's Mass schedule and location were a bit interesting as well. I'm so surprised that the next nearest was 1.5 hours away (so 3 hours round trip) in a diocese this large, and with arguably the most liberal Abp in the US, I can't believe there's not more SSPX to 'serve' what must be legions of dispossessed 'trads' but I digress...

This presumes the SSPX has the wherewithal to buy a suitable building (or land, on which to build upon) in our pricey part of the country.   ;)

The two SSPX chapels were inherited (as was another chapel within the confines of a nearby diocese).  The chapel you attended this week had a wealthy benefactor to get the ball rolling.

[JMartyr]

Excommunicated? From what, and by whom?

Love that line!!