Fish Eaters Traditional Catholic Forum
May 21, 2013, 05:30:PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The man still needs help!
 
   Fish Eaters    Forum Index   Forum Rules   Help Calendar Members Chat Room   Who's Chatting   Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3
 
Author Topic: Liturgia Horarum (Genuine Leather Edition)  (Read 2754 times)
Credo
Member

Posts: 6,513



« on: November 13, 2010, 10:11:PM »

If anyone has $900 to throw around, take a look at this:

Liturgia Horarum (Genuine Leather Edition) - http://www.theologicalforum.org/product.asp?ci=26&pi=421



This is clear proof that there is no serious move to reincorporate Latin in the life of the Western Christians. If anything, spending $900 on a prayer book is a scandal to the religion.
Logged

I promise not to put anything here which might help us question our mind-forged manacles, inspire us, or help us in any way at all.

N.B.: I will not be posting on this site again until the Christmas octave. Have a good Advent.
Bakuryokuso
Eh
Member

Gender: Male
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 5,935


The gentleman in question


« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2010, 10:37:PM »

Yeah, wow. Do you pray the LOTH in Latin or the vernacular, Credo?
Logged

"I suppose the greatest reform of our time was that carried out by St Pius X: surpassing anything, however needed, that the Council will achieve." -- JRR Tolkien, letter to his son Michael, 1 November 1963
Resurrexi
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 3,104



« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2010, 10:37:PM »

If anyone has $900 to throw around, take a look at this:

Liturgia Horarum (Genuine Leather Edition) - http://www.theologicalforum.org/product.asp?ci=26&pi=421



This is clear proof that there is no serious move to reincorporate Latin in the life of the Western Christians. If anything, spending $900 on a prayer book is a scandal to the religion.


Oh well, who would want to say the Novus Ordo Breviary, anyway?
Logged

Vita brevis breviter in brevi finietur,
Mors venit velociter quae neminem veretur,
Omnia mors perimit et nulli miseretur.
Ad mortem festinamus; peccare desistamus.
Credo
Member

Posts: 6,513



« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2010, 10:51:PM »

Quote from: Bakuryokuso
Yeah, wow. Do you pray the LOTH in Latin or the vernacular, Credo?

No, I pray the LOTH in Latin. I believe the edition I use was the second printing. It was done in the 1970s.

Quote from: Resurrexi
Oh well, who would want to say the Novus Ordo Breviary, anyway?

Having done academic work on the Divine Office (i.e.: written conference papers, clergy surveys) I feel confident saying that for every individual Latin Catholic who sings 1962 (or earlier) office, there are 10 - 20 believers who sing the LOTH.
Logged

I promise not to put anything here which might help us question our mind-forged manacles, inspire us, or help us in any way at all.

N.B.: I will not be posting on this site again until the Christmas octave. Have a good Advent.
Resurrexi
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 3,104



« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2010, 11:02:PM »

Quote from: Resurrexi
Oh well, who would want to say the Novus Ordo Breviary, anyway?

Having done academic work on the Divine Office (i.e.: written conference papers, clergy surveys) I feel confident saying that for every individual Latin Catholic who sings 1962 (or earlier) office, there are 10 - 20 believers who sing the LOTH.

What about those of us who just whisper it?
Logged

Vita brevis breviter in brevi finietur,
Mors venit velociter quae neminem veretur,
Omnia mors perimit et nulli miseretur.
Ad mortem festinamus; peccare desistamus.


Bakuryokuso
Eh
Member

Gender: Male
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 5,935


The gentleman in question


« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2010, 11:34:PM »

Credo forgive me if this has been hashed out on previous threads, but what advantages/disadvantages do you see in the 1962 Breviary vs 1970 LOTH? I converted to Catholicism this year in large part because I feel in love with LOTH and I'm just now discovering the Breviarum Romanum.

I think the 1970 changes to Matins make a lot of sense for the laity.

I think the daytime hours and compline may have been needlessly oversimplified in LOTH though.

Obviously there is some sense that if you go to a TLM it is smoother to pray the Breviary since the calendars align - and LOTH aligns with the NO thru V2 readings at Matins and similar prayers between daytime hours and mass... and prayers of the people in the NO remind me of intercessions in morning and evening prayer
Logged

"I suppose the greatest reform of our time was that carried out by St Pius X: surpassing anything, however needed, that the Council will achieve." -- JRR Tolkien, letter to his son Michael, 1 November 1963
Credo
Member

Posts: 6,513



« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2010, 11:51:PM »

Quote from: Resurrexi
What about those of us who just whisper it?

The ordinary way to celebrate the Office is to sing it. This is not to say that the canonically mandated practice in the 1962 (and before) books of at least mouthing the words, or praying the Office in complete silence (as is allowed in the LOTH) has no subjective merit, but neither method (i.e.: mouthing words or silence) are the liturgical ideal.

Bakuryokuso, that's a huge question you ask. In short I dislike the 1910-1962 Office because its Psalm schema has an artificial feel to it. The Psalms of Prime and Compline just seem dumped into where they are. Additionally, while it was simplified from its earlier incarnations, the books were still far too complicated for laymen to start saying in large numbers. The selections at Mains were too halting and short. The only real plus I see it the BR is the use of the full and unedited Psalter, prayed in full weekly. The LOTH suffers from editorial stupidity (e.g.: Compline was thrown together at the last second. Somehow, almost unbelievably, the Consilium just forgot about writing Compline(!) until someone realized, “opps;” only half of the original selections for the Office of Readings were ever published throughout the Universal Church). The 50+ Psalm verses, and three full Psalms which are missing from the modern Office is a disgrace, as is the loss of the Latin language as the ordinary way to celebrate the ritual prayer. On the plus side, the LOTH was and is immensely helpful in dispelling the idea – still entrenched in traditional parishes, much to the frustration of traditional clergy – that the Office is “the priest’s thing.” The Divine Office is the prayer of everyone, and we should be on our knees thanking God that the horrible idea of the Prayer of the Church being only for the clergy is going the way of New Coke. Additionally the simplified “prayer load,” and the thematic  placement of the Psalms in the Psalter is a plus for the LOTH.
Logged

I promise not to put anything here which might help us question our mind-forged manacles, inspire us, or help us in any way at all.

N.B.: I will not be posting on this site again until the Christmas octave. Have a good Advent.
Resurrexi
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 3,104



« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2010, 12:10:AM »

Quote from: Resurrexi
What about those of us who just whisper it?

The ordinary way to celebrate the Office is to sing it. This is not to say that the canonically mandated practice in the 1962 (and before) books of at least mouthing the words, or praying the Office in complete silence (as is allowed in the LOTH) has no subjective merit, but neither method (i.e.: mouthing words or silence) are the liturgical ideal.

I am not terribly familiar with the details of how the Novus Ordo Breviary is said, and I was surprised that those who have an obligation to say it do not have to mouth the words at least. Can you give me a reference for this?
Logged

Vita brevis breviter in brevi finietur,
Mors venit velociter quae neminem veretur,
Omnia mors perimit et nulli miseretur.
Ad mortem festinamus; peccare desistamus.
Bakuryokuso
Eh
Member

Gender: Male
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 5,935


The gentleman in question


« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2010, 12:37:AM »

Thanks Credo - fabulous food for thought! Would you say it's really essential to choose one or the other... that it doesn't makes sense to pray LOTH but 1962 Completorium or BR but Office of Readings?
Logged

"I suppose the greatest reform of our time was that carried out by St Pius X: surpassing anything, however needed, that the Council will achieve." -- JRR Tolkien, letter to his son Michael, 1 November 1963
Resurrexi
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 3,104



« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2010, 12:44:AM »

FWIW, I'm too trad for the Pius X psalter, so I pray the Monastic Breviary, which has a REAL trad psalter.
Logged

Vita brevis breviter in brevi finietur,
Mors venit velociter quae neminem veretur,
Omnia mors perimit et nulli miseretur.
Ad mortem festinamus; peccare desistamus.
Pages: [1] 2 3
 
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.8 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC