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Author Topic: Discontinuing my EMHC service.  (Read 16169 times)
QuisUtDeus
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« Reply #380 on: December 28, 2010, 01:20:PM »

Here's the problem with your argument as I see it.

You're claiming MD allows reintroduction of things from the past.  Sure, but they are qualified.  Clearly, by the examples, things that were suppressed should not be brought back.  Yet, the NO did exactly that, including things PXII said explicitly no to.  Further, the way things are brought in from the past in MD is through organic changes; again, the NO did the exact opposite.

If we want further evidence of P12's intent, we can look at his encylical on sacred music:  http://www.ewtn.com/library/encyc/p12music.htm

There is no way any of the stuff you are trying to justify would fly with him.  We have it in his own words what he meant by liturgical change, and examples of changes that he would find acceptable and not acceptable.  The NO changes fall squarely under "not acceptable".  A different Pope found them acceptable and even good.

So, while you may come up with an argument as to how the NO is "traditional" or how the changes in it are acceptable or even good in the light of tradition, you're not going to do it with Mediator Dei;  you may be able to with Paul VI's addresses and encyclicals, but unless you want to engage in severe mental gymnastics, ones that it is difficult for me to believe you think will come to a consensus with your argument if they are analyzed in context, you're not going to be able to reconcile it.

As I understand MD, the specific examples he gave of illicit liturgical changes were to illustrate people acting without proper authority.  I thought his point was papal authority over sacred liturgy, not that any of these practices were intrinsically wrong. (He said this explicitly in the case of use of vernacular.)  I can't see him limiting what any future pope might do, since his position is that each pope must determine how liturgy will meet the circumstances of his time.

I think that MD establishes general principles about changing liturgy rather than showing any specific practices are wrong.  The main principle is papal authority over liturgy, limited by preserving the integrity of the faith.  A minor point, but one I thought relevant to our discussion, is that continuous development of liturgical tradition is not necessary.

I think that you're reading of MD is forced.  You can repeat over and over that's what it's about, but when he condemns people for "straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform", for example, and you're saying that at the same time he's saying it's OK for the NO to change the wall altar to the tableform, your logic has gone out the window, and you're engaging in verbal gymnastics and grasping at straws.

Look, if you want to believe that, fine, then defend it by showing that P12 wouldn't be bothered by these things.  I can show where he says specific things are not OK at all.  Show where he says they are OK.  Because if he thought any Pope could do whatever they wanted and it would be fine, he wouldn't be putting restrictions down, would he?  He would just say: "Whatever the Pope says must be fine"  But that's not what he said at all.



Quote
But if you think this discussion about MD will bear fruit, by all means, let's continue it.  Don't forget, though, you are still attempting to show the NO is "traditional" in some sense and I am attempting to show the opposite.  That discussion is more interesting to me by far.

I think we have been talking about different senses of being traditional.  You are pointing to specific instances of changes from the past and focusing on details.  In your approach, even changing a couple of words is a break with tradition.  I am thinking about a more general sense of tradition and looking at the big picture.  For me, retaining the general structure and basic prayers is a connection to tradition.  I tend to be a big picture sort of person and am especially inclined to this perspective in this case because of my experiences as a Fundamentalist.  I have seen what rejection of tradition in general looks like so I am very aware that this did not happen in the NO.  I do concede that at the level of detail there are many instances in which the NO does not retain tradition.

That's word gymnastics.  Basically you're forcing the question:  "How much lacking in tradition does something have to be before it's not traditional?"

But if you want to go to the big picture, let's go to the huge picture and include not only the Missal but the forms of the Sacraments, the Rite of Exorcism, Canon Law, etc.  The problem with the big picture is the more we include, the fewer traditional practices exist.

Traditional means traditional.  It means it was handed down.  The NO was not handed down.

Here's a simplified picture:

The Last Supper
|                                                         \                               \
|                                                          \                               \
The primitive Latin Rite liturgies  Eastern Rites       Unorthodox Rites (Cathar, Gnostic, etc.)
|
|
The Council of Trent             ==>  Suppressed practices
|
|
The changes in the 1950s
|
|
The 1962 Missal


OK, let's look at the NO

The Last Supper
|                                                         \                               \
|                                                          \                               \
The primitive Latin Rite liturgies  Eastern Rites       Unorthodox Rites (Cathar, Gnostic, etc.)
|                                      |
|                                      |
The Council of Trent  |    ==> Suppressed Practices
/ snip for brevity /        |                    |
|                                     |                   |
The 1962 Missal        |                    |
|                                     |                    |
|                                     |                    |
\                                     |                    /
                                 The NOM


That picture is not perfect, but it is fairly accurate.  The NOM is not what was handed down.  It reached back on its own initiative, it resurrected suppressed practices, etc.  What is consciously not handed down goes to tradition as much as what is handed down.  P12 says as much:

Quote
From time immemorial the ecclesiastical hierarchy has exercised this right in matters liturgical. It has organized and regulated divine worship, enriching it constantly with new splendor and beauty, to the glory of God and the spiritual profit of Christians. What is more, it has not been slow - keeping the substance of the Mass and sacraments carefully intact - to modify what it deemed not altogether fitting

the temerity and daring of those who introduce novel liturgical practices, or call for the revival of obsolete rites out of harmony with prevailing laws and rubrics, deserve severe reproof.

It's a Heinz 57 liturgy.  If you call it traditional given what it is, then the word itself loses all sense and can mean anything.  Maybe that's your goal, I don't know.  If it's not, I don't understand how given the plain facts you can call it traditional or use MD to defend it.
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Bakuryokuso
Eh
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The gentleman in question


« Reply #381 on: December 28, 2010, 03:39:PM »

The problem with that is any Protestant can be offended over anything he chooses.  Luther had a devotion to the BVM.  Some Lutherans and Anglicans believe in Saints.  The fact that not every Protestant everywhere is appeased is not surprising and doesn't change anything.

Exactly - from some comments on FE I get the impression that some folk think that Protestants are some sort of monolithic group, which is hardly true.
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"I suppose the greatest reform of our time was that carried out by St Pius X: surpassing anything, however needed, that the Council will achieve." -- JRR Tolkien, letter to his son Michael, 1 November 1963
Nic
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In Hoc Signo Vinces.


« Reply #382 on: December 28, 2010, 04:49:PM »

Regardless, there are jobs that are prescribed to the ordained, and those prescribed to the laity.  Reading during Mass (especially by a woman) and handing out (literally) Holy Communion by the laity are NOT examples of duties performed by the laity.  In fact, during Holy Mass, the laity is there to pray and receive the Lord in Holy Communion.  The innovators of the Novus Ordo wanted to initiate the blurring of lines between the priest/ordained and the laity, which is Protestantism 101 (they take the "priesthood of all believers" way too far in their approach).  The Protestant ideal is to not offer sacrifice (the Holy Mass), and when a sacrifice is not offered - a priest is not needed, only a "celebrant," "minister," or "pastor," or any other title that denotes the presiding over of an assembly by an ordained person - but not a priest.

This is a very good post, Nic, however, if I may I'd like to point out one thing.  I'm aware of the Scripture that states women aren't allowed to speak in the temple, but in today's age "especially by a woman" comes across as sexist and can easily lose the argument's credibility with the listener/reader.  When that happens you've missed a teaching moment and opportunity to evangelize those clouded by the "spirit of V2".  Apart from that, I agree with every word you wrote.

Actually, Scripture states exactly that, and not the Old Testament speaking of the Temple, but in the New Testament speaking of the Church.

As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
(1 Cor 14:33-35)

Women speaking in church is blatantly condemned in the NT, and this is why it was not done until after Vatican II when the Church allowed the feminist spirit to act within, which put an end to the veiling of women (also commanded in the NT) and the beginning of women lectors (condemned in the NT).

The only reason why my post seems sexist is because of the age we live in.  The lines have been blurred between man and woman as well as between priest and laity.  Satan is the master of inversion, he attempts to make a mockery out of the Natural Law by inverting the order of things.  The role of women is now seen as the same as man, which is an affront to God for men and women have very different but important roles in the Church, society and the family.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 04:55:PM by Nic » Logged

"For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."
--Ephesians 6:12

Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."
--St. Athanasius

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 -- God Bless the SSPX.
Ockham
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Posts: 540



« Reply #383 on: December 28, 2010, 08:21:PM »

Maybe it was appropriate for women not to speak in a temple or church back then but I can't see any theological or dogmatic reason for it today.  Can you?

My point is your argument will win more people over with the laity shouldn't enter the Sanctuary and avoid this passage of Scripture.
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"Our pilgrimage on earth cannot be exempt from trial.  We progress by means of trial.  No one knows himself except through trial, or receives a crown except after victory, or strives except against an enemy or temptations."  St. Augustine
Vetus Ordo
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« Reply #384 on: December 28, 2010, 08:23:PM »

Maybe it was appropriate for women not to speak in a temple or church back then but I can't see any theological or dogmatic reason for it today.  Can you?

It's plainly written in Holy Scripture. Isn't the Word of God enough theological reason for you?

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"THE LORD is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the protector of my life: of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalm 26:1)

"And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." — Clement, bishop of Rome

"I love truth," says he, "and not sects. I am sometimes a peripatetic, a stoic, or an academician, and often none of them; but—always a Christian. To philosophise is to love wisdom; and the true wisdom is Jesus Christ. Let us read the historians, the poets, and the philosophers; but let us have in our hearts the gospel of Jesus Christ, in which alone is perfect wisdom and perfect happiness." — Petrarch


devotedknuckles
the causes go, true rebels remain
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Personality type: incorrigible buffalo
Posts: 20,680



« Reply #385 on: December 28, 2010, 08:36:PM »

No kiddin
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This is the journey
from which, for me there shall be no return
wholly drenched
is the pine tree of  tears
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JayneK
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« Reply #386 on: December 28, 2010, 08:48:PM »

It's a Heinz 57 liturgy.  If you call it traditional given what it is, then the word itself loses all sense and can mean anything.  Maybe that's your goal, I don't know.  If it's not, I don't understand how given the plain facts you can call it traditional or use MD to defend it.

I don't have anything to add to what I have already said.  I am not denying any facts; I just have a different perspective on them than you do. I have given my honest understanding of what tradition means and of  what MD says.  My goal is to understand and to do what is right.   I do not think there is anywhere to go with this discussion.
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ADORABLE Saviour, consider my many wants, and grant me those graces which Thou knowest I stand in need of to do Thy will in all things.
JMartyr
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Posts: 1,619



« Reply #387 on: December 28, 2010, 09:01:PM »

"if anyone despises or rejects any written or unwritten ecclesiastical tradition, anathema sit".
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" When I think that we are in the building of the Holy Office, the outstanding witness of Tradition and defender of the Catholic Faith, I cannot help thinking that I am on my own territory and that it is I whom you call ' the traditionalist' who should be judging you." -  quote from Archbishop Lefebvre when questioned by the CDF


"Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and Bishop Antonio de Castro Mayer are the two great saints of the modern Church. Once this catastrophe ends they will be instantly canonized." - Father Malachi Martin
icecream
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Location: the big bagel
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« Reply #388 on: December 28, 2010, 09:04:PM »

ill pay someone $50 to read this entire thread
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wanna buy me some ice cream? | ice cream in latin: LAC GLACIALE [frozen milk] | fyi, i'm not catholic  . . .  yet!

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devotedknuckles
the causes go, true rebels remain
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Personality type: incorrigible buffalo
Posts: 20,680



« Reply #389 on: December 28, 2010, 09:05:PM »

That's very post modern of u jayn
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This is the journey
from which, for me there shall be no return
wholly drenched
is the pine tree of  tears
-Yoshida Shoin
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