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Ockham
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« Reply #400 on: December 28, 2010, 09:49:PM » |
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The clergy would be better distinguished if they alone performed the lector duties and no laity entered the Sanctuary during Mass.
Taking Scripture literally is the hallmark of Protestants. Currently, Holy Mother Church allows men and women to perform the lector duties. My point is the traditional position would be better advanced staying away from 1Cor 14 and keeping it on restoring the clergy/laity distinction.
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"Our pilgrimage on earth cannot be exempt from trial. We progress by means of trial. No one knows himself except through trial, or receives a crown except after victory, or strives except against an enemy or temptations." St. Augustine
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The_Harlequin_King
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« Reply #401 on: December 28, 2010, 09:52:PM » |
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The clergy would be better distinguished if they alone performed the lector duties and no laity entered the Sanctuary during Mass. And, I would add, ordaining altar servers and choristers to the minor orders. |
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Please read and subscribe to my blog: Modern Medievalism. Applying old-world solutions to new-world problems.  Praying for the dead is important. PM me if you need a cantor for the Requiem Mass of a deceased friend or family member. Have cassock and surplice, will travel. (Will also do weddings for a reasonable price.) |
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JayneK
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« Reply #402 on: December 28, 2010, 09:53:PM » |
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It's a Heinz 57 liturgy. If you call it traditional given what it is, then the word itself loses all sense and can mean anything. Maybe that's your goal, I don't know. If it's not, I don't understand how given the plain facts you can call it traditional or use MD to defend it.
I don't have anything to add to what I have already said. I am not denying any facts; I just have a different perspective on them than you do. I have given my honest understanding of what tradition means and of what MD says. My goal is to understand and to do what is right. I do not think there is anywhere to go with this discussion. Then all of philosophical inquiry is dead because it consists of discerning the truth not letting questions rot in the mud. Alas, the meaning of traditional, we knew thee well. Fallen prey to the same linguistic arts as the Vatican II documents. There are places in the Summa where St. Thomas talks about words being used in more than one sense. Do you think his goal is deliberate ambiguity and confusion? I think we were using the word "traditional" in different senses. That was my contribution to philosophical inquiry and you do not seem prepared to consider it. |
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ADORABLE Saviour, consider my many wants, and grant me those graces which Thou knowest I stand in need of to do Thy will in all things.
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devotedknuckles
the causes go, true rebels remain
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« Reply #403 on: December 28, 2010, 09:57:PM » |
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You just make up different senses of words as u go along?
Again vwey post modern of you and relativist to
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This is the journey
from which, for me there shall be no return
wholly drenched
is the pine tree of tears
-Yoshida Shoin
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Vetus Ordo
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« Reply #404 on: December 28, 2010, 10:00:PM » |
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Taking Scripture literally is the hallmark of Protestants. On the contrary. Taking the Word of God literally and at heart is the hallmark of any true Christian. The literal sense of the text is the primary sense of Scripture, unless plain reason or the infallible magisterium of the Church dictate otherwise. St. Paul is very clear on the role of women in Church and up until Vatican II the Church was clear on it too, in conformity with Holy Writ and Tradition. There's no reason for us to "avoid" the word of God. That's nonsense! Are you ashamed of it? The hallmark of Protestants, on the other hand, is private interpretation of Scripture without any deference towards the authority of the Church which inevitably leads to confusion and disbelief. |
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"THE LORD is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the protector of my life: of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalm 26:1)
"And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." — Clement, bishop of Rome
"I love truth," says he, "and not sects. I am sometimes a peripatetic, a stoic, or an academician, and often none of them; but—always a Christian. To philosophise is to love wisdom; and the true wisdom is Jesus Christ. Let us read the historians, the poets, and the philosophers; but let us have in our hearts the gospel of Jesus Christ, in which alone is perfect wisdom and perfect happiness." — Petrarch
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CollegeCatholic
Banned for snarking meanness, disrespect toward the Holy Father, twisting what others say in order to mock them, etc.
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Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam
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« Reply #405 on: December 28, 2010, 11:07:PM » |
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The clergy would be better distinguished if they alone performed the lector duties and no laity entered the Sanctuary during Mass.
Taking Scripture literally is the hallmark of Protestants. Currently, Holy Mother Church allows men and women to perform the lector duties. My point is the traditional position would be better advanced staying away from 1Cor 14 and keeping it on restoring the clergy/laity distinction.
Obscure the truth, eh? Let's only reveal to the unwashed masses that of Scripture which we find appropriate for them.  As to the whole "Holy Mother Church allows men and women to perform the lector duties" - It's not infallible. HMC can, and probably is, erring horribly horribly wrong. For centuries, we believed the Bible said one thing. Now, when the culture changes, we say another. :S |
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Ockham
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« Reply #406 on: December 28, 2010, 11:16:PM » |
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You just make up different senses of words as u go along?
Again vwey post modern of you and relativist to
The irony here is deafening. |
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"Our pilgrimage on earth cannot be exempt from trial. We progress by means of trial. No one knows himself except through trial, or receives a crown except after victory, or strives except against an enemy or temptations." St. Augustine
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Ockham
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« Reply #407 on: December 28, 2010, 11:24:PM » |
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The hallmark of Protestants, on the other hand, is private interpretation of Scripture without any deference towards the authority of the Church which inevitably leads to confusion and disbelief.
Yea, that's it - I'm ashamed of Scripture. I couldn't find the "rolling eyes" smiley. Catholics are supposed to be obedient to the Magisterium which consists of Scripture and Tradition. That's my understanding anyway. For what it's worth, my advice comes from the strategy of picking your battles. Just as I think Bishop Williamson should keep his Holocaust theories to himself, it's in the best interests of traditional Catholicism to keep this passage of Scripture out of the debate. Let's get the laity out of the lector role all together. Otherwise, savy modernists will make it a wedge issue, cry 'sexism' and win yet another battle. |
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"Our pilgrimage on earth cannot be exempt from trial. We progress by means of trial. No one knows himself except through trial, or receives a crown except after victory, or strives except against an enemy or temptations." St. Augustine
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The_Harlequin_King
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« Reply #408 on: December 28, 2010, 11:40:PM » |
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I repeat myself ad nauseam: ordain readers, altar servers and choristers to the minor orders. Enforce the clerical/lay distinction to the extreme end. Erect rood screens. Allow no women to approach the altar even to clean the linens. And I say that in full earnest.
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Please read and subscribe to my blog: Modern Medievalism. Applying old-world solutions to new-world problems. Praying for the dead is important. PM me if you need a cantor for the Requiem Mass of a deceased friend or family member. Have cassock and surplice, will travel. (Will also do weddings for a reasonable price.) |
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MichaelNZ
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« Reply #409 on: December 28, 2010, 11:42:PM » |
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I repeat myself ad nauseam: ordain readers, altar servers and choristers to the minor orders. Enforce the clerical/lay distinction to the extreme end. Erect rood screens. Allow no women to approach the altar even to clean the linens. And I say that in full earnest.
Does ordaining them to the minor orders mean they'd have to be celibate? And can somebody be ordained to a minor order if they have no intention to go on and become a priest? |
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