Discontinuing my EMHC service.

[JayneK]

I like Ockham so I'm disappointed, but I respect the decisions of the moderator.

Me too, and I also liked glgas and Credo. But sometimes you just have to know when to swallow your pride and shut up. If Quis ever tells me to "knock it off", I'm going to do it!      

Exactly.  It is important to respect the authority of the moderator.

[Vetus Ordo]

It's even more important to respect the authority of Scripture which Ockham failed to do more than once. A person who says that Holy Scripture is "counter-productive" speaks like an infidel, not a Christian.

[The_Harlequin_King]

What do you mean by no women catechists?

Get rid of women who teach religious education. Including teaching nuns. Can't imagine why anyone ever thought that was a good idea.

Up until 1972 or so, the Church -- from the time of St. Paul -- interpreted 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 quite literally, as can be seen by her immemorial practice (and the already-mentioned 1917 Code, unless THK knows otherwise...).

I was going to agree with you until JayneK brought up the interesting point about women in choirs. In recent centuries, women in choirs became tolerated, and so a new custom developed of having lay choirs sing in the back of the church rather than the front.

I, of course, believe it'd be best if we got rid of women singers too, and had male-only choirs ordained to the minor orders. Today, there are people who think (consciously or subconsciously) that singing is for girls. That's messed up.

[JayneK]

Up until 1972 or so, the Church -- from the time of St. Paul -- interpreted 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 quite literally, as can be seen by her immemorial practice (and the already-mentioned 1917 Code, unless THK knows otherwise...).

I was going to agree with you until JayneK brought up the interesting point about women in choirs. In recent centuries, women in choirs became tolerated, and so a new custom developed of having lay choirs sing in the back of the church rather than the front.

I, of course, believe it'd be best if we got rid of women singers too, and had male-only choirs ordained to the minor orders. Today, there are people who think (consciously or subconsciously) that singing is for girls. That's messed up.

I agree that the ideal is a male-only schola ordained to the minor orders, although I'm not sure how practical that would be to reintroduce.

In any event, I do not think that "Let women keep silent in the churches" has ever been taken literally.  A strictly literal understanding of this would mean that women could not participate in congregational responses, cough, sneeze or tell their children to behave.  Women would have to choose footwear for church on the basis of soundlessness.  (Oops, the discussion on women in boots is in another thread.  ;D ) 

St. Paul himself explains what he means: Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith.  He is talking about women speaking in position of authority - i.e. not being subject. (We see a similar idea in I Tim 2:12 - [12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.) This still requires interpretation by the Church.  Is singing in the choir a position of authority"  Is being a lector a position of authority?  Does being a lector have the same connotations in a culture that is primarily illiterate as it does in culture that is primarily literate?  These are questions that must be left to the authority of the Church.

[QuisUtDeus]

I agree with Jayne in general, but my take on it is: anything appropriate to the priesthood is what women should not be doing in Mass.

I have no problem with women teaching theology outside of Mass as long as they are qualified to do so; in fact, the Benedictine nuns that taught me in grade school are the reason I'm Catholic in spite of spending 8+ years in the Jesuit gauntlet.  The Benedictines gave me faith, the Jesuits gave me reason.

[JayneK]

I agree with Jayne in general, but my take on it is: anything appropriate to the priesthood is what women should not be doing in Mass.

The question that raises for me is:  Are there any roles appropriate for lay men during Mass that are not appropriate for women?  If HK is right about minor orders being the ideal (and I suspect he is) then I can't think of any.

[QuisUtDeus]

I agree with Jayne in general, but my take on it is: anything appropriate to the priesthood is what women should not be doing in Mass.

The question that raises for me is:  Are there any roles appropriate for lay men during Mass that are not appropriate for women?  If HK is right about minor orders being the ideal (and I suspect he is) then I can't think of any.

Appropriate, no.  Allowable, yes.

[The_Harlequin_King]

I agree that the ideal is a male-only schola ordained to the minor orders, although I'm not sure how practical that would be to reintroduce.

You didn't ask, but I'll tell you what I'd do, anyway, if I were pastor of a parish. I'd require all my parishioners who want to serve at the altar to first learn how to sing in choir. I'd have stalls built between the altar and the laity for this purpose. There, they'd learn the basics of chant, the bows prescribed by the rubrics, and so forth. If they participate regularly for a year, then I'd ask the bishop to tonsure them and perhaps receive the degree of porter (in today's terms, this would include greeting people to the church, ushering, passing the collection plates). From there, they can learn lectoring (as lectors), assisting at baptisms (as exorcists), all while learning to serve the varying degrees of Mass and finally become acolytes once they have low, sung and solemn all down. The most senior of these men will then be considered for diaconate or priesthood. Think of it as a very formalized altar guild, under the direction of one of my deacons.

In any event, I do not think that "Let women keep silent in the churches" has ever been taken literally.  A strictly literal understanding of this would mean that women could not participate in congregational responses, cough, sneeze or tell their children to behave.  Women would have to choose footwear for church on the basis of soundlessness.  (Oops, the discussion on women in boots is in another thread.   ) 

I agree. The ancient Church seems to have had a lot of congregational singing, male and female alike.

Is singing in the choir a position of authority"  Is being a lector a position of authority?  Does being a lector have the same connotations in a culture that is primarily illiterate as it does in culture that is primarily literate?

Singing in an ecclesiastical choir does, sort of. The chants of the minor Propers (Introitus, Graduale, Alleluia, Offertorium, Communio) are, to some degree, prayers reserved to the clergy. Singing in a lay choir, though, can merely be a professional subset of the laity that's dedicated to singing complex arrangements of the Ordinary (Kyrie, Gloria, etc.). I'd see it as satisfactory to have two choirs: one of servers and minor orders in the front in the choir stalls, and one of mixed male and female laity in the choir loft in the back.

Lectoring is also a position of authority to some degree because lectors proclaim the Scriptures to the people. Serving the altar is a position of authority, too. Unfortunately, I think altar serving has been distilled in many people's minds as a cute thing for little boys to do. Whatever.

[Nic]

I agree with Jayne in general, but my take on it is: anything appropriate to the priesthood is what women should not be doing in Mass.

I have no problem with women teaching theology outside of Mass as long as they are qualified to do so; in fact, the Benedictine nuns that taught me in grade school are the reason I'm Catholic in spite of spending 8+ years in the Jesuit gauntlet.  The Benedictines gave me faith, the Jesuits gave me reason.

From what I have always understood, it is not permissible for a woman to hold any sort of position of authority over a man, with the exception of 1) instructing children and 2) instructing other women.  This is why nuns and women religious in the pre-Vatican II era (the first 1,930 years) only openly instructed children (in their schools) and other women (in their convents and hospitals).  The deception of Satan in the modern world and the blurring of the lines between the sexes has caused confusion on a grand scale - and it is as much the fault of men as it is women, for weak men stood aside as ultra-feminist women usurped their roles in society, the Church and the family.  This is now the new status quo of society, at least in the West.  To openly challenge that status quo immediately gets one labeled as a sexist pig.

[JayneK]

I agree with Jayne in general, but my take on it is: anything appropriate to the priesthood is what women should not be doing in Mass.

I have no problem with women teaching theology outside of Mass as long as they are qualified to do so; in fact, the Benedictine nuns that taught me in grade school are the reason I'm Catholic in spite of spending 8+ years in the Jesuit gauntlet.  The Benedictines gave me faith, the Jesuits gave me reason.

From what I have always understood, it is not permissible for a woman to hold any sort of position of authority over a man, with the exception of 1) instructing children and 2) instructing other women.  This is why nuns and women religious in the pre-Vatican II era (the first 1,930 years) only openly instructed children (in their schools) and other women (in their convents and hospitals).  The deception of Satan in the modern world and the blurring of the lines between the sexes has caused confusion on a grand scale - and it is as much the fault of men as it is women, for weak men stood aside as ultra-feminist women usurped their roles in society, the Church and the family.  This is now the new status quo of society, at least in the West.  To openly challenge that status quo immediately gets one labeled as a sexist pig.

I'm not sure about the morality of it, but simply from a human dynamics perspective, it is awkward for women to be in positions of authority over men.