The Ghosts of Flight 401

[Lydia Grace]

and is obviously not demonic in nature.

To be a smart-ass (but with a point):  yet you have no problem believing ghosts (speaking generally) are non-demonic?

Let me ask this: do you think there are ghosts of children?  I mean, ghost hunting people do, and they get EVPs with children's voices on them relatively frequently.   Personally, I find it difficult to believe God would allow any soul to wander aimlessly let alone a child's soul. 

They want your attention so they can make an inroad.  They want to be part of your life so they can take it over.  They're the original predators, con men, child molestors, etc.  They'll build interest and trust, and then move in.

And even if they are ghosts, there is nothing more you can do for them than you do already: remember them at Mass especially on All Souls Day.

I think that's a very scary thought. I don't think souls are always wandering when they are on earth, though. I think they could be just wanting prayers. Even if they aren't doing something specifically to scare people, I know I for one am scared at the idea of a ghost and would start praying even if it seemed like a "nice" ghost! But as fopr children, would children even be in purgatory long enough to come back to earth to ask for prayers? I would think they would have less sins.

[Lydia Grace]

Sorry, that quote was supposed to be from QuisUtDeus.

[QuisUtDeus]

I think that's a very scary thought. I don't think souls are always wandering when they are on earth, though. I think they could be just wanting prayers.

I tend to agree with you, however I've watched a lot of ghost shows, heard stories, etc., and I can't think of a single time that a "ghost" asked for prayers or Masses, though sometimes they do ask for other things.  That in itself kind of sends up a red flag for me when it comes to the "could this be their purgatory" question.

[Walty]

and is obviously not demonic in nature.

Why do you say that?

I guess I don't know for sure, but I didn't feel scared and neither did my father.  I felt like there was a presence which wanted us to know that it was there, but it wasn't evil or threatening in any way.

"And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light." (2 Cor. 11:14)

It need not be threatening to be demonic in nature. That possibility is not excluded as you seemed to imply in your last post.

Of course I can never be totally sure of what it was, but I do have a hard time believing that every non-threatening appearance of ghosts is demonic.

To be a smart-ass (but with a point):  yet you have no problem believing ghosts (speaking generally) are non-demonic?

Let me ask this: do you think there are ghosts of children?  I mean, ghost hunting people do, and they get EVPs with children's voices on them relatively frequently.   Personally, I find it difficult to believe God would allow any soul to wander aimlessly let alone a child's soul.  Really, this seems more like a demonic ploy to get sympathy and suck someone in.  Demons will pretend they are "lost souls" to get an acquaintance with you.  They will respond with EVPs, all kinds of stuff, to suck you in.  Today's EVP is yesterday's seance or necromancy circle.  Demons are con men.

Oh, and there's always the dead batteries and stuff that say ghosts need energy to manifest.  Here's a different thought: demons need attention to manifest.  They drain the batteries, manipulate flashlights, etc. to get more attention.  Otherwise, why all the smoke and mirrors?  Why do demons levitate things at exorcisms, for example?  I do not think they are naive enough to believe it is going to scare a priest who is committed to performing the exorcism or assistants who are experienced.

They want your attention so they can make an inroad.  They want to be part of your life so they can take it over.  They're the original predators, con men, child molestors, etc.  They'll build interest and trust, and then move in.

And even if they are ghosts, there is nothing more you can do for them than you do already: remember them at Mass especially on All Souls Day.

All I'm saying is that I don't believe that every time someone sees a little old lady knitting by the fire it's a demon.  I also can't make any sense of why a demon would draw blinds up and down.  What point is there in that?

[QuisUtDeus]

All I'm saying is that I don't believe that every time someone sees a little old lady knitting by the fire it's a demon. 

Fair enough.  It's just speculation on my part as well.

I also can't make any sense of why a demon would draw blinds up and down.  What point is there in that?

I would say to get your attention so they can weasel into your life.  It's like a demonic pick-up line.  Seriously.

[Vetus Ordo]

I also can't make any sense of why a demon would draw blinds up and down.  What point is there in that?

I would say to get your attention so they can weasel into your life.  It's like a demonic pick-up line.  Seriously.

Indeed.

Satan is ever watchful. It's our job not to get caught.

[Walty]

All I'm saying is that I don't believe that every time someone sees a little old lady knitting by the fire it's a demon. 

Fair enough.  It's just speculation on my part as well.

I also can't make any sense of why a demon would draw blinds up and down.  What point is there in that?

I would say to get your attention so they can weasel into your life.  It's like a demonic pick-up line.  Seriously.

No, I do understand that.  I would be the first to say that a lot more "ghostly" activity is demonic than anyone in the secular world realizes.  I'd also agree that ghosts are not souls from purgatory.  As you said, they never ask for prayers, penance, or Masses to be offered for them.  Ever.

If one is going to believe in real ghosts then they have to admit that there is some aspect of the afterlife that we don't understand.  I admit that it doesn't fit in with what has been revealed to us, but there is still this phenomenon so deeply engrained in the human experience.  I just find it hard to dispel.

[laurabookworm]

For most of my life, I've been a skeptic about ghosts in the same way I've been one about God: I've figured that if we don't have decent proof, then as fascinating as the idea of life after death (however weird it is) seems, it's probably just wishful thinking. In other words, people see ghosts and believe in ghosts because it's fun. Because it's interesting. Because people generally like a good, fun scare. And also because for the most part, most of us quietly wish there WAS some part of us that lived on after our death.

But lately, I haven't been as confident about my position. If God DOES exist, and I am genuinely trying to ascertain for myself whether He does, then that opens up literally a whole new world of possibilities. It makes souls, spirits, angels, demons, heavens, hells, everything possible. So I'd imagine that if all those things were at least possible, well really, why not ghosts as well? I still don't have scientific proof for ghosts... or, when it comes down to it, any of the other stuff listed above. But I've been told by several people that faith needs to work without scientific proof, and really, without any proof at all. If children say they've seen a saint, they've seen a saint. If a man walking down the road hears the voice of God, he hears the voice of God. People's personal, subjective experiences of the supernatural appear to be all the proof needed.

So, while the jury's still honestly out for me on ghosts, I'll have to admit that they're one more possibility, however little evidence we've got. I'm not too concerned, though. IF actual ghosts really existed and "haunted" anything (ghosts, not demons), then they'd be no more threatening than their human counterparts were. That being said, I sincerely hope Vlad the Impaler, Adolph Hitler, and others like them never, EVER walked the earth after their deaths. Now, THAT would be scary.... ;)

[Rosarium]

If one is going to believe in real ghosts then they have to admit that there is some aspect of the afterlife that we don't understand.  I admit that it doesn't fit in with what has been revealed to us, but there is still this phenomenon so deeply engrained in the human experience.  I just find it hard to dispel.

No, there is an aspect of human nature. Psychology is very powerful.

Unless it can be measured, or at least photographed in some way, then the human mind is the first place to look. Most instances are merely feelings, vague events which are easily explained with things which are plausible, or just frauds.

[Walty]

If one is going to believe in real ghosts then they have to admit that there is some aspect of the afterlife that we don't understand.  I admit that it doesn't fit in with what has been revealed to us, but there is still this phenomenon so deeply engrained in the human experience.  I just find it hard to dispel.

No, there is an aspect of human nature. Psychology is very powerful.

Unless it can be measured, or at least photographed in some way, then the human mind is the first place to look. Most instances are merely feelings, vague events which are easily explained with things which are plausible, or just frauds.

I'm not discounting that. I do, however, find it highly unlikely that my father and I were both having the same delusion at the same moment.  I also know that there was no one in the building and that rows of blinds do not pull themselves up and down like that.  I can never prove, in a modern sense, that my experience, or similar experiences, actually happened and that they involved something supernatural, but, being the one who witnessed it, I know that something was in that building which cannot be currently explained by modern science or psychology.