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Author Topic: Why don't SSPX chapels require separating men and women folk?  (Read 3070 times)
Freudentaumel
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« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2011, 04:04:AM »

I have heard that in some places in rural Bavaria this prevailed even in the Novus Ordo into the 1980s.
The only place in the Western Church that I know of that still does this is the Saint Benedict Center in Still River.
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spasiisochrani
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« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2011, 03:48:PM »

I attended Mass in the 50's and 60's (long before my conversion) in Kansas and I never saw segregation by sex in a Catholic Church.

How about when you were Serbian Orthodox?
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orate
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« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2011, 05:18:PM »

I was born in 1951, over a decade before even the 1962 missal.

In parochial school when we attended a daily Mass in the parish church the boys and girls sat on different sides (I'm thinking the boys sat on the Epistle side?, but I can't really remember).  When we had Mass in the school cafeteria (the parish church was 10 blocks away, until a new one was built in 1963), there was no center aisle, so the girls sat in the front rows and the boys behind them.

Howeve, in regular Mass attendance, families always sat together, and single people sat where ever, I presume.  This was in the diocesies
 

I am of the same generation as moneil,  and what he writes was pretty much my experience as well.  Yes, for school Masses during the week, boys on Epistle side where St. Joseph's altar was located and girls on the Gospel side where the Blessed Virgin's altar was located.

On Sundays  9:00 Mass was designated for the 1st through 4th graders with the genders segregated in the front of the Church and everyone else mixed behind them.  10:00 Mass was designated for 5th through 8th graders and set up the same way.  All other Sunday Masses--we had one every hour on the our from 7:00 am through 12:00 p.m. on Sundays---were mixed  seating.

Except for the school children, all the Masses were mixed.
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DJR
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« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2011, 12:35:AM »

I was born in 1951, over a decade before even the 1962 missal.

In parochial school when we attended a daily Mass in the parish church the boys and girls sat on different sides (I'm thinking the boys sat on the Epistle side?, but I can't really remember).  When we had Mass in the school cafeteria (the parish church was 10 blocks away, until a new one was built in 1963), there was no center aisle, so the girls sat in the front rows and the boys behind them.

Howeve, in regular Mass attendance, families always sat together, and single people sat where ever, I presume.  This was in the diocesies
 

I am of the same generation as moneil,  and what he writes was pretty much my experience as well.  Yes, for school Masses during the week, boys on Epistle side where St. Joseph's altar was located and girls on the Gospel side where the Blessed Virgin's altar was located.

On Sundays  9:00 Mass was designated for the 1st through 4th graders with the genders segregated in the front of the Church and everyone else mixed behind them.  10:00 Mass was designated for 5th through 8th graders and set up the same way.  All other Sunday Masses--we had one every hour on the our from 7:00 am through 12:00 p.m. on Sundays---were mixed  seating.

Except for the school children, all the Masses were mixed.

I also experienced this during grade school, albeit a modified version. 

For Mass, the classes were divided according to sex, with all the girls in a class sitting in the first couple of rows assigned to that particular class and then all the boys of that same class sitting in the following rows.  The second graders sat behind the first graders, divided according to sex, with the second grade girls immediately behind the first grade boys.  There were two classes in each grade level, and each side of the church had the same setup.

It would be like two rows of first grade girls from Class 101 on the left side of the church, followed by two rows of boys from that class.  The other side of the church had the same, except it was Class 102.  Then the second grade girls sat immediately behind the first grade boys, each side, 201 and 202, followed by two rows of second grade boys, then the third grade girls, with the third grade boys behind them, et cetera. 

This custom was kept by the parish school during and after the initial changes and even after the new Mass was promulgated.  I don't know if it is still done today however.  I believe the Koreans still practice a division of the sexes at Mass (at least it appears that way from what I've seen in recent photos) as well as some parts of eastern Europe.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 12:38:AM by DJR » Logged
St. Drogo
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—Dieu des humbles, sauvez cet enfant de colère!


« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2011, 12:59:AM »

I think Harlequin King is probably right. I went to a TLM last week where I was literally the only male besides the priest and the altar server.
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Resurrexi
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« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2011, 01:06:AM »

I have never seen this in any traditionalist chapel I've ever been to and I'm not at all sure why. Certainly I don't know where the 1983 law abrogates this custom, and it seems like the same logic as that that is used to justify women veiling should apply.

Edit: I was talking to a second cousin about the traditional mass and he mentioned that his brother used to attend a mass somewhere in the Midwest where this custom still prevailed.

I'd say veiling is required because of positive divine law (1 Corinthians 11), not because of ecclesiastical law.
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pilgrimtochrist
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« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2011, 01:24:AM »

At the Benedictine monastery at Clear Creek, there are faithful who regularly attend the Hours and Mass there.  I noticed there was a loose segregation by sex, nothing formal but it was enough for me to notice it.  Also, on Sunday  / Holy Day Mass, there would be a short homily.  During the homily, the men would process around the cloister with monks while the women listened to the homily.

Of course, at a monastery there already is greater sex-segregation because the lay men are allowed limited access to the cloister, such as the refectory and grounds where women are not allowed.

Sex-segregation is a much more sane system.  Obviously, we shouldn't be as crazy about it as the radical Muslims who would rape or behead a woman for being found where she is ought not to be or for showing even a flash of skin but it is better that we have a sense of gender differences than digress into social androgyny.  Liturgy is the most sane place on earth, where we do ritually what we ought and behave in ways that highlight who we are (especially at a Solemn High Mass, there is so much meaning in every little action of the clergy).

For instance, most women wear pants and do not veil outside of Mass but most women at Mass wear dresses or long skirts and veil at Mass.  Modesty, that is, acting and dressing with due mode is extremely important at Mass, especially for the clergy but also for us as laymen.  Part of this certainly could be the separation of the sexes (little kids excepted, of course) but it would seem to be difficult to start in a place where it has fallen out of custom.  I couldn't really imagine Father standing up at a Sunday sermon and saying that all men need to be seated on the Gospel side and all women on the Epistle side.  I've already seen people get up and walk out in a huff during a particularly biting sermon (such as the one on rock music)...

If the Muslims and the Orthodox Jews can have a sense of gender segregation out of modesty, we shouldn't be ashamed of doing it either.

Quote from: GK Chesterton, "Heretics"
To say that a man is an idealist is merely to say that he is a man; but, nevertheless, it might be possible to effect some valid distinction between one kind of idealist and another. One possible distinction, for instance, could be effected by saying that humanity is divided into conscious idealists and unconscious idealists. In a similar way, humanity is divided into conscious ritualists and unconscious ritualists. The curious thing is, in that example as in others, that it is the conscious ritualism which is comparatively simple, the unconscious ritual which is really heavy and complicated. The ritual which is comparatively rude and straightforward is the ritual which people call "ritualistic." It consists of plain things like bread and wine and fire, and men falling on their faces. But the ritual which is really complex, and many coloured, and elaborate, and needlessly formal, is the ritual which people enact without knowing it. It consists not of plain things like wine and fire, but of really peculiar, and local, and exceptional, and ingenious things—things like door-mats, and door-knockers, and electric bells, and silk hats, and white ties, and shiny cards, and confetti. The truth is that the modern man scarcely ever gets back to very old and simple things except when he is performing some religious mummery. The modern man can hardly get away from ritual except by entering a ritualistic church. In the case of these old and mystical formalities we can at least say that the ritual is not mere ritual; that the symbols employed are in most cases symbols which belong to a primary human poetry. The most ferocious opponent of the Christian ceremonials must admit that if Catholicism had not instituted the bread and wine, somebody else would most probably have done so. Any one with a poetical instinct will admit that to the ordinary human instinct bread symbolizes something which cannot very easily be symbolized otherwise; that wine, to the ordinary human instinct, symbolizes something which cannot very easily be symbolized otherwise. But white ties in the evening are ritual, and nothing else but ritual. No one would pretend that white ties in the evening are primary and poetical. Nobody would maintain that the ordinary human instinct would in any age or country tend to symbolize the idea of evening by a white necktie. Rather, the ordinary human instinct would, I imagine, tend to symbolize evening by cravats with some of the colours of the sunset, not white neckties, but tawny or crimson neckties—neckties of purple or olive, or some darkened gold. Mr. J. A. Kensit, for example, is under the impression that he is not a ritualist. But the daily life of Mr. J. A. Kensit, like that of any ordinary modern man, is, as a matter of fact, one continual and compressed catalogue of mystical mummery and flummery. To take one instance out of an inevitable hundred: I imagine that Mr. Kensit takes off his hat to a lady; and what can be more solemn and absurd, considered in the abstract, than, symbolizing the existence of the other sex by taking off a portion of your clothing and waving it in the air? This, I repeat, is not a natural and primitive symbol, like fire or food. A man might just as well have to take off his waistcoat to a lady; and if a man, by the social ritual of his civilization, had to take off his waistcoat to a lady, every chivalrous and sensible man would take off his waistcoat to a lady. In short, Mr. Kensit, and those who agree with him, may think, and quite sincerely think, that men give too much incense and ceremonial to their adoration of the other world. But nobody thinks that he can give too much incense and ceremonial to the adoration of this world. All men, then, are ritualists, but are either conscious or unconscious ritualists. The conscious ritualists are generally satisfied with a few very simple and elementary signs; the unconscious ritualists are not satisfied with anything short of the whole of human life, being almost insanely ritualistic. The first is called a ritualist because he invents and remembers one rite; the other is called an anti-ritualist because he obeys and forgets a thousand.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 01:32:AM by pilgrimtochrist » Logged
jovan66102
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« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2011, 04:34:PM »

I attended Mass in the 50's and 60's (long before my conversion) in Kansas and I never saw segregation by sex in a Catholic Church.

How about when you were Serbian Orthodox?

Nope. Neither in the Serb Church I was a member of nor the Russian and Syrian Antiochean Parishes I attended.
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The_Harlequin_King
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« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2011, 04:38:PM »

I think Harlequin King is probably right. I went to a TLM last week where I was literally the only male besides the priest and the altar server.

Yep. Women rule the Church.
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spasiisochrani
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« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2011, 06:26:PM »

Yesterday, instead of going to Byzantine Divine Liturgy, I attended the TLM at St. Stephen's in Cleveland, Ohio--an old German parish that was founded in 1869 according to the bulletin.  I took a look at the pews and, sure enough, the hat clips were only on the pews on the men's side (the right side) of the church.  The women would have sat on the left side and kept their hats on.  So it's safe to say that 19th Century German Catholics in Cleveland sat segregated by sex during Mass.
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