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Poll
Question: What is your opinion of the reformed Holy Week?
I love it! - 4 (12.5%)
It is ok. - 5 (15.6%)
I think the reformed Holy Week was a mistake. - 23 (71.9%)
Total Voters: 31

Pages: 1 [2] 3
 
Author Topic: Holy Week at the SSPX  (Read 2035 times)
Phillipus Iacobus
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« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2011, 06:41:PM »

There was a critique by an Italian Monsignor, posted on an Anglo-Catholic blog, I think. I also read an anecdote, maybe from this critique, that Pope John XXIII asked that a certain chant be sung. He was told that this was abolished with the '55 changes, but as Supreme Pontiff, they were done anyway.
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formerdatt
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« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2011, 07:04:PM »

I am headed from Kansas to St Isadore's (SSPX) in Denver Thursday afternoon, a four hour drive. Mass "In Coena Domini", followed with Adoration until midnight. I'll post the next day.
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JMartyr
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« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2011, 07:15:PM »

I am headed from Kansas to St Isadore's (SSPX) in Denver Thursday afternoon, a four hour drive. Mass "In Coena Domini", followed with Adoration until midnight. I'll post the next day.
I am jealous. No SSPX Mass here except on  Saturday night [Vigil] and Sunday.  :(
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" When I think that we are in the building of the Holy Office, the outstanding witness of Tradition and defender of the Catholic Faith, I cannot help thinking that I am on my own territory and that it is I whom you call ' the traditionalist' who should be judging you." -  quote from Archbishop Lefebvre when questioned by the CDF


"Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and Bishop Antonio de Castro Mayer are the two great saints of the modern Church. Once this catastrophe ends they will be instantly canonized." - Father Malachi Martin
Christus Imperat
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« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2011, 10:22:PM »

Read the first article in the NLM series on Palm Sunday.  The unreformed rite sounds incredible and it is hard to see the reasons for the '55 changes.  Interesting.
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The greatest of all misfortunes is never to have known Jesus Christ: yet such a state is free from the sin of obstinancy and ingratitude. But first to have known Him, and afterwards to deny or forget Him, is a crime so foul and so insane that it seems impossible for any man to be guilty of it. For Christ is the fountain-head of all good.  --- Leo XIII, Tametsi
RomanitasPress
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Posts: 191



« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2011, 06:18:PM »

Without taking the time to make a comprehensive review, allow me to state this:  the Holy Week reform (1955) was legitimate and completely orthodox. Anything that people do not like about it (including Msgr. Gromier's comments) are simply a matter of personal preferences of accidentals; nothing doctrinal was touched.  Nor do I consider the Holy Week Reform to be a precedent for the New Mass; such an accusation not only grossly over simplifies the matter, but it takes it completely out of context.

Also, for what ever chest-thumping certain liberal liturgists would like to make of their involvement/influence/motivations with/for the Holy Week Reform (as if we should even believe them on these points, after all, they lied and deceived us about many other things), nevertheless, their actual involvement/influence was practically nil. Even Archbishop Lefebvre declared this about Bugnini in regards to his work for the Holy Week Reform commission, which I remind everyone, had to get past the likes of Lefebvre, Ottaviani, etc. when they still had enormous influence in the Church (before the Vatican II bureaucratic take over).  Though not the end-all argument, if Archbishop Lefebvre was willing to accept the 1955 Holy Week reforms, then I think we can say with certitude that they are doctrinally and liturgically sound.

Finally, if you do an actual comparison of the reformed Holy Week versus the Memoriale Rituum, you will find that the revisions were very slight, and in some cases very welcomed (such as the celebrant completing the Paschal Candle versus the deacon during the Exsultet).

In any case, I could go on forever, but I can't right now.
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Christus Imperat
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« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2011, 09:57:PM »

Without taking the time to make a comprehensive review, allow me to state this:  the Holy Week reform (1955) was legitimate and completely orthodox. Anything that people do not like about it (including Msgr. Gromier's comments) are simply a matter of personal preferences of accidentals; nothing doctrinal was touched.  Nor do I consider the Holy Week Reform to be a precedent for the New Mass; such an accusation not only grossly over simplifies the matter, but it takes it completely out of context.

How do we define what is a personal preference or accidental, versus authentic tradition of the Church?  Nothing doctrinal is touched in the '65 Missal, but I personally prefer the accidentals of the Prayers at the foot of the altar and the Last Gospel.

As I've read and thought about these issues more, it is hard for me to see what is sacrosanct about the '62 Missal, as opposed to earlier Missals on one hand, or the '65 on the other.  We now have canonical recognition for the '62 Missal and rubrics through Summorum Pontificum, but if you accept what Pius XII says about the Pope's rights over the liturgy, it is hard to see how Paul VI's "right" to promulgate the Novus Ordo can be denied.

I would assert that the Good Friday changes are rather substantial.  I've gone to the SSPX Good Friday and the NO Good Friday and they aren't dramatically different, with the exception of the awful petitions in the NO rite (I grant this is a big exception). 
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The greatest of all misfortunes is never to have known Jesus Christ: yet such a state is free from the sin of obstinancy and ingratitude. But first to have known Him, and afterwards to deny or forget Him, is a crime so foul and so insane that it seems impossible for any man to be guilty of it. For Christ is the fountain-head of all good.  --- Leo XIII, Tametsi
Joshua
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« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2011, 01:42:AM »

Without taking the time to make a comprehensive review, allow me to state this:  the Holy Week reform (1955) was legitimate and completely orthodox.

The Church's preservation of her liturgical patrimony does not rest solely on the minimalist sterility of canonical and doctrinal propriety. For as flawed and deficient as the Novus Ordo Missae is, it does not contain heresy (diabolically muddled perhaps), it is sacramentally valid and was a "legitimate" manifestation of Papal authority over the liturgy. Yet, we freely and truthfully acknowledge that the NO is devoid of any organic liturgical continuity, has led to a wholesale abandonment of faith and has utterly destroyed any semblance of sacrality in our parishes. Change for the sake of change (even if the product is orthodox and legitimate) is a foreign concept to Catholicism. The argument of "legitimacy" and "orthodoxy" doesn't hold much water.

Quote from: RomanitasPress
Anything that people do not like about it (including Msgr. Gromier's comments) are simply a matter of personal preferences of accidentals; nothing doctrinal was touched.

Exactly how is this comment any different from the ones used by NO apologists to dismiss the legitimate claims of traditionalists? As Christus Imperat stated, how can we flippantly regard centuries old liturgical treasures as mere "accidentals"?

Quote from: RomanitasPress
Nor do I consider the Holy Week Reform to be a precedent for the New Mass; such an accusation not only grossly over simplifies the matter, but it takes it completely out of context
.

The context is precisely the same as the context from which the NO was borne: committee-concocted liturgy. Even if you consider Bugnini's own statements that it was indeed the first step toward total liturgical revolution as mere "chest-thumping", it is undeniable that modernist reformers saw in the Holy Week reforms as their first real victory toward the fruition of their machinations.

Quote from: RomanitasPress
Though not the end-all argument, if Archbishop Lefebvre was willing to accept the 1955 Holy Week reforms, then I think we can say with certitude that they are doctrinally and liturgically sound.
.

... that seems to be the only consistent retort that is made by traditionalists who strangely refuse to acknowledge the fact that the NO and their "restored Holy Week" possess the same author and end. For as much as I love and honor the good Archbishop ... he wasn't a liturgist. It is a well established fact that he used  transitional missals (i.e. post-'62 / pre-'70) while at Econe. Mgsr. Gromier was an eminent liturgical scholar and a pre- VII papal master of ceremonies (a distinct role of unimaginable liturgical complexity) , and knew an anomaly when he saw it. Knowing this, why is his analysis dismissed out of hand while lauding  + Lefebvre's take as practically de fide? Even a cursory glance at the changes implemented will reveal the radical and sweeping scope at which they operated. They were wholly invented rites in every sense of the word and it is understandable that a traditionalist would box his ears when confronted with the inconvenient fact that Bugnini's legacy is alive and well in TLM communities during one of the most solemn and sacral moments of the liturgical year. However, instead of averting one's attention from this crucial issue in a misguided attempt to protect the near-deified wisdom of + Lefebvre, the SSPX, etc (which seems to be at the root of this debate), we should confront this issue and realize that the road to restoration does not end with being complacent with the half-traditional/half-innovation table scraps of 20th century reformers.
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"Know this: it is by very little breaches of regularity that the devil succeeds in introducing the greatest abuses. May you never end up saying: 'This is nothing, this is an exaggeration' ... I would give up my life a thousand times, not only for each of the truths of Sacred Scripture, but even more for the least of the rubrics and ceremonies of the Catholic Church."
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tradne4163
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« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2011, 02:03:AM »

You know, I've heard that the Institute of Christ the King uses the older form of Holy Week at least some of the time. Apparently, all a priest needs is the local bishops permission (don't laugh) to use the pre-Pius XII form for it.
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RomanitasPress
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« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2011, 10:35:AM »

Again, there are many nuances and contexts that must be properly applied to the issue of the 20th century reforms to the Roman Mass versus the liturgical revolution of the Novus Ordo Missae.

The first is, the New Mass is an issue first and foremost of doctrine; that is, it is theologically defective and therefore poses a danger to the faith of Catholics.  This is absolutely not the case for the Holy Week reforms and those of the 1962 missal; i.e., there is nothing theologically deficient in these.

The second is, a liturgical revolution is diametrically different than an authentic reform or revision; also one can make a critique of any liturgical reform that has occurred, whether it was Trent's reform of the missal, St. Pius X's of the breviary, or of Pius XII's of Holy Week.

The third is, a pope can reform the liturgy (there is no dispute on this point); but that is not what Pope Paul VI with the New Mass: he instead imposed a destructive revolution that was based on Protestantism. Obviously this was not the case regarding Holy Week.

The fourth is, the Novus Ordo does not use the Holy Week reform exactly as revision between 1955 and 1962; there were some more changes made, most of which were textual and touching on theological points.

The fifth (and again), Bugnini had very little to do with Holy Week Reform; he certainly was not given a free hand as occurred with the Consilium. So his bragging (and of his cronies) are usually "big fish" stories in order to give themselves credit for what in fact they did not accomplish.

More 2 cents worth.
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newyorkcatholic
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terrena despicere


« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2011, 10:46:AM »

I was blessed this Holy Week.  We had the 1962 rites at our diocesan parish every single day.

I voted "the changes were a mistake" but this is compared to the pre-1955 reforms.

Compared to not having Mass at all, or compared to only have NO rites available, I think it is absolutely wonderful to have the 1955/1962 rites available.  I am thankful to God for them!
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