USCCB Will Remove St. Paul from the Canon?

[Augstine Baker]

We don't ignore Saints but we understand that statements form Saints are neither dogmatic nor infallible.  You keep claiming that your position is what has always and everywhere been held by Catholics but you still are not supporting your claim.  You need some kind of official statement like an encyclical or statement from the Roman Catechism. 

It proves a unity of opinion on what is, ridiculously, a controversial point, and it is, I'm glad to see you finally conceded, a position which the USCCB finds problematic enough to "condemn" it as if they would ever use such medieval language to condemn any erroneous opinions held by their mostly less than orthodox membership.

Saints are helluva lot more authoritative than a pack of crypto-Marxists and Americanists with Mitres.

A bunch of quotes does not prove there is a unity of opinion.  It only shows that whoever selected the quotes found sources to support his opinion.  Neither you, nor anyone else on this thread, has established that those quotes are representative of Catholic thought. Other information presented in this thread suggests that they should not be considered representative.

If you are looking for a stick to beat the USCCB with, I'm sure you could find something more suitable than a complex point of theology that requires careful thought and study.
 

Yes, a substantial number of definitive quotes and authoritative statments by Sainted Popes do amount to more than a hill of beans, that is, if you're not a protestant.

I know you like nuanced and subtle things, but in this case, it's really clear cut.

[Augstine Baker]

There aren't as many neo-Cons on Ignis Ardens where the same post is also up.  The difference in the response is interesting too.  Most of the regular posters there, with one exception, a neo-Con, get it and aren't wasting people's time by ignoring the obvious and trying to discredit or slay the messenger.

[Remegius]

August.B. - Thanks for the Feeney and Liturgical Year quotes. Really to the point.

The following traditional perspective on the Jews and the Gospel is extracted from

THE CONTINUITY OF RELIGION, Bishop Bousseut, pub 1681.

p85 Section heading, 'Corruptions and superstions amongst the Jews. False doctrines of the Pharisees'.

"- they gradually perverted religion to superstitious practices, subservient to their interests.... From this principle they looked upon the Gentiles with an unbearable disdain. To be descendents of Abraham according to the flesh, seemed to them a distincrtion, which set them naturally above all others, and puffed up with so noble an extraction, they fancied themselves holy by nature, and not by Grace: an error which still prevails amongst them.

To elevate themselves above other men they multiplied external practices without number, and peddled all their notions, however contrary to the Law of God, as so many 'authentic traditions'.

Ch XIX, p90.
The chief Priests and Pharisees stirred up against Jesus the Jewish people, whose religion was degenerating into superstition. That people cannot bear the Saviour of the World, calling them to solid but difficult practices.

He foretells their punishment with tears, He denounces to Jerusalem her approaching fall.. He prophesies also that the Jews, enemies to the Truth He declared to them, would be delivered up to error, and become the sport of False Prophets.

Meantime the Jealousy of the Pharisees is bringing Him to an infamous sentence.  But the moment was come for the Synagogue's reprobation.

The High Priest and the whole Council condemn Jesus Christ because He called Himself Christ, the Son of God. He is delivered up to Pontius pilate, and His innocence is acknowledged by Pilate, whom policy and interest induce him to act contrary to his conscience.

Jesus is condemned to death and the most heinious crime makes way for the most perfect obedience.  On the Cross, He beholds in the Prophecies what yet remained for Him to do: He fulfils it, and says at last "It is Consummated" (John 19:30).

At this Word, everything changes in the world: The Law ceases. Its figures pass away, its sacrifices are abolished by a more perfect oblation.

The Centurion, astonished at such a death cries out, 'Indeed, this was the Son of God' (Matt 27:54) and the spectators return smiting their breasts.

 page 137 section 'The Blindness of the Jews' -
"Let us talk no more of Jerusalem nor of the Temple, but let us cast our eyes on the people themselves, formerly the living temple of God, and now the object of His hatred.

The Jews are in a worse state than their Temple or City.  The Spirit of Truth is no longer among them: prophecy is extinguished among them: the promises on which they built their hopes are vanished: everything is overthrown in this people; and there is not left a stone upon a stone.

St John Chrysostem cries out - 'He built His Church upon a rock, nothing has been able to overthrow it: He overthrew the Temple, nothing has been able to rebuild it.

None can pull down what God raises up; none can raise up what God pulls down'

...And observe to what extent they are given up to error.
Jesus Christ had said to them: "I am come in the name of My Father and you receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive" (John 5:43). And so - who does not see that the spirit of seduction seized their hearts?

'They receive not the love of The Truth, that they might be saved. Therefore, God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying' (2 Thess 2:10).

p 111 'Fulfillment of the prophecy of Jacob'.
What afterwards befalls the unbelieving Jews under Vespasian and Titus, no longer relates to the People of God. It is only a chastising of Rebels, who by their infidelity towards the Seed promised to Abraham and David, are no longer Jews, nor sons of Abraham but according to the flesh, and renounce the promise whereby all nations were to be blessed.

The Gentiles incorporated with the faithful Jews, in Christ Jesus, become henceforth the True Jews and the true kingdom of Juda, opposed to the schismatic Israel cut off from the people of God; they become the true kingdom of David, by their obedience to the Laws and Gospel of Jesus Christ, the son of david.

After the establishment of this new kingdom, no wonder if everything goes to wreck in Juda.  The Temple had had its promised glory.  The visible Jerusalem had done what remained for her to do, since the Church had their taken Her rise.

Juda is now nothing to God, or religion, no more than the Jews; and it is just that in punishment of their hardness of heart the remnants be dispersed over the whole earth".

p113, 'St Paul to the Romans and the prophecy of Isaias'

Thus the Jews shall return one day, and they shall return never to go astray again. But they shall not return till after both the East and the west, that is - the whole world, shall have been filled with the fear and true knowledge of God".

[Augstine Baker]

Np, I've got other stuff too

[Adeodatus01]

Are you suggesting that accusing a host of Saints, the Apostles and Fathers as well as real Catholics everywhere today living, of holding an uncatholic position and condemning it is something that should be taken likely?

No. If that's what is happening it should be taken seriously. The Scripture is a serious matter, and serious matters should be taken seriously.

What I'm challenging is the accuracy of your title. I think it's clearly inaccurate and I don't really think that you think it is accurate either. Which is too bad because of the nature of the issue, and also of the station of those whom are the targets of the criticism.

[Remegius]

To clarify the point of contraversy, wether today's Catholic Church can or should modify it's understanding of Holy Scripture, let's compare the Apostle Paul's I Thess, 2.
[14] For you, brethren, are become followers of the churches of God which are in Judea, in Christ Jesus: for you also have suffered the same things from your own coutrymen, even as they have from the Jews, [15] Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men;

with Vatican II'sNostra Aetate -

'True, the Jewish Authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; still what happened in His Passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed of God'.

In the style of Simon Galloway's most useful book 'No Crisis in the Church?' (2006) we ask which of these two texts reflects the normative and timeless teaching of the Holy Catholic Church?

First let us compare the texts against more evidence.  For brevity we will have to do without quotes from the Saints of Holy Church, and focus instead on the Councils, Popes and Scripture. Primarily Our Lord's words -

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killest the Prophets and stonest them that are sent to thee... Behold, your house shall be left to you desolate". (Luke 13:35.

and the Council of Florence, 1442 -

'The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews - cannot share in Eternal Life ... unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives'.

and Pope Benedict the XIV's Ex Quo Primum 1756 -

'... the precepts of the old Law which, as everybody knows, have been revoked by the coming of Christ'.

And let us remind ourselves of the salient quotations from Bishop Bousseut, see previous post:

'At this Word, everything changes in the world: The Law ceases. Its figures pass away, its sacrifices are abolished by a more perfect oblation.

The Gentiles incorporated with the faithful Jews, in Christ Jesus, become henceforth the True Jews and the true kingdom of Juda, opposed to the schismatic Israel cut off from the people of God; they become the true kingdom of David, by their obedience to the Laws and Gospel of Jesus Christ, the son of david.

Juda is now nothing to God, or religion, no more than the Jews; and it is just that in punishment of their hardness of heart the remnants be dispersed over the whole earth".

Finally, once again we return to HOLY SCRIPTURE -

Apocalypse 2:9 and 3:9

[9] I know thy tribulation and thy poverty, but thou [The Catholic Church] art rich: and thou art blasphemed by them that say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

[9] Behold, I will bring of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie. Behold, I will make them to come and adore before thy feet. And they shall know that I have loved thee. [10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the hour of the temptation, which shall come upon the whole world to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Against this weight of evidence, the statement from Nostra Aetate seems to be a total novelty, which flies in the face of Holy Scripture and true Catholic teaching. There are many more quotes that could be obtained from Paul VI, JPII, Pope Ben XVI, the USCCB and many other fellow travellers of the Concilliar Church to show that a disorienting change has taken place in Rome since the late '60's regarding the Jews.

But equally, no one can deny that the perennial and traditional teaching of the Catholic Church, as demonstrated by the quotes above, can be summarised thus: that the Jews, by instigating the Crucifixion of Our Saviour, called down upon themselves a penalty of abandonment by God. The exceptions to this have been Jews who converted in Spirit and Truth and united themselves in Christ with the gentiles in the Catholic Church, the new people of God.  God's just anger is upon the renegades, self-proclaimed 'Jews', until the End Times, when, it is prophesied, a certain number again will be saved by their full conversion and incorporation into Christ's elect.

[Augstine Baker]

Are you suggesting that accusing a host of Saints, the Apostles and Fathers as well as real Catholics everywhere today living, of holding an uncatholic position and condemning it is something that should be taken likely?

No. If that's what is happening it should be taken seriously. The Scripture is a serious matter, and serious matters should be taken seriously.

What I'm challenging is the accuracy of your title. I think it's clearly inaccurate and I don't really think that you think it is accurate either. Which is too bad because of the nature of the issue, and also of the station of those whom are the targets of the criticism.

There's been a systematic effort to undermine the Scriptures, the Canon of the Saints and indeed, all of the Depositum Fidei as if it could be changed to fit the whims of modern errors.    Maybe you've heard of modernism?

[Grasshopper]

I love how they used CE instead of AD. Nice little way to deny Christ His due.

You know what's funny, though -- the whole BCE/CE thing is an attempt to secularize dating, so that non-Christians aren't offended by it, but the pivot point is still the birth of Christ. Try as they might, they can't get away from that!

[mikemac]

Romans 11 says God hath not cast off all Israel. The Gentiles must not be proud but stand in faith and fear.
"[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. [19] Thou wilt say then: The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. [20] Well: because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith: be not highminded, but fear."
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/52011.htm

But who are those that "were broken off" today?  In Arthur Koestler's online book titled "The Thirteenth Tribe" he says that Gog and Magog are already in the Holy Land.  The review of Shlomo Zand's book titled "When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?" starts off by saying "What if the Palestinian Arabs who have lived for decades under the heel of the modern Israeli state are in fact descended from the very same "children of Israel" described in the Old Testament?  And what if most modern Israelis aren't descended from the ancient Israelites at all ... ?"
http://www.alternet.org/story/122810/?page=1

"As concerning the gospel, indeed, they (unbelieving descendants of the Israelites) are enemies for your sake." (Romans 11:28)  "For if thou wert cut out of the wild olive tree, which is natural to thee; and, contrary to nature, were grafted into the good olive tree; how much more shall they that are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, (lest you should be wise in your own conceits), that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles should come in." (Romans 11:24-25)  "I will send you Elias the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.  And he shall turn the heart of the fathers (unbelieving descendants of the Israelites) to the children (Catholics), and the heart of the children to their fathers". (Malachias 4:5-6)  "I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred sixty days (in Jerusalem), clothed in sackcloth", one of the witnesses being Elias. (Apocalypse 11:3)
  
Obviously the fulness of the Gentiles has not come in yet for we have not heard of the two witnesses in Jerusalem and the heart of the unbelieving descendants of the Israelites have not turn to the Catholic Faith yet.  As concerning the gospel, indeed, they (unbelieving descendants of the Israelites) are still enemies for our sake.

Just like we can say to the Christian Zionists (some of which come to this forum) we can also say to some Catholic prelates, "God's hand cannot be pushed".

[Augstine Baker]

As a race, the Jews bear the mark of deicides.  They have a divine mandate to return to their true spiritual home lest they end up in Hell.