Nice Guys

[piabee]

After a man has had a few of experiences of women with unreasonable expectations and sees the connection to the way that modern women are socialized, he is likely to become discouraged.  It is not a simple matter of moving on to another woman because he has begun to doubt that a suitable woman even exists.  There is a general problem with women in this culture and saying that men just have to "man-up"  does not recognize this.

I've become discouraged from my experiences with men but I don't whine about it.

[Iolanthe]

After a man has had a few of experiences of women with unreasonable expectations and sees the connection to the way that modern women are socialized, he is likely to become discouraged.  It is not a simple matter of moving on to another woman because he has begun to doubt that a suitable woman even exists.  There is a general problem with women in this culture and saying that men just have to "man-up"  does not recognize this.

Men have the upper hand in modern dating because of a general lack of morality. The price of sex is low and men take advantage of it. Modern women may want the wrong things in some ways but that's because they're told not to expect marriage or commitment from a man so they focus on other things. Most men who go from one woman to another do so because A: they want to and B: they get away with it and are even encouraged by society to be womanizers.

[JayneK]

After a man has had a few of experiences of women with unreasonable expectations and sees the connection to the way that modern women are socialized, he is likely to become discouraged.  It is not a simple matter of moving on to another woman because he has begun to doubt that a suitable woman even exists.  There is a general problem with women in this culture and saying that men just have to "man-up"  does not recognize this.

I've become discouraged from my experiences with men but I don't whine about it.

And most men don't whine about the condition of women either.  Of course, that does prevent people from accusing them of whining whenever they mention the problems with women.  The typical response to a man discussing this to say it is own fault and he is whining and he needs to man up.  In other words, it triggers the shaming and blaming routine.

There are nice guys out there - genuinely nice guys - men who would make great husbands.  And they have trouble finding women because many women do not know what they want or have impossible expectations.  An article claiming that the problem is that nice guys aren't really nice guys is just more shaming and blaming.  It may be true in some cases, but my main impression of this article is that is a way to deny that many women are too messed up to recognize a nice guy when they see one.

[cgraye]

Men have the upper hand in modern dating because of a general lack of morality. The price of sex is low and men take advantage of it. Modern women may want the wrong things in some ways but that's because they're told not to expect marriage or commitment from a man so they focus on other things. Most men who go from one woman to another do so because A: they want to and B: they get away with it and are even encouraged by society to be womanizers.

I was about to say that this is totally irrelevant because Catholics shouldn't be dating those kinds of people anyway.  But it seems that people often are not what they claim to be and appear to be, so...it seems we cannot easily escape that problem either.

[piabee]

After a man has had a few of experiences of women with unreasonable expectations and sees the connection to the way that modern women are socialized, he is likely to become discouraged.  It is not a simple matter of moving on to another woman because he has begun to doubt that a suitable woman even exists.  There is a general problem with women in this culture and saying that men just have to "man-up"  does not recognize this.

I've become discouraged from my experiences with men but I don't whine about it.

And most men don't whine about the condition of women either.  Of course, that does prevent people from accusing them of whining whenever they mention the problems with women.  The typical response to a man discussing this to say it is own fault and he is whining and he needs to man up.  In other words, it triggers the shaming and blaming routine.

There are nice guys out there - genuinely nice guys - men who would make great husbands.  And they have trouble finding women because many women do not know what they want or have impossible expectations.  An article claiming that the problem is that nice guys aren't really nice guys is just more shaming and blaming.  It may be true in some cases, but my main impression of this article is that is a way to deny that many women are too messed up to recognize a nice guy when they see one.

This is the point of the article (again, apologies for the immorality):

Given that nice guys get bedded and/or wedded all the time, you must have a more specific problem than that. Here are some specific behaviors I have witnessed in guys who think they’re “too nice” when actually they’re “unpleasant.” Is this you?

It's not talking about all nice guys. The men you mention most likely have trouble finding women because they aren't looking or because they, too, have impossible ideals. No one is saying that every woman is a catch, but you also can't say that every guy is a catch. It's not shaming and blaming; it's constructive criticism in a genuine attempt to help them.

And most men don't whine about the condition of women either.

 

[Someone1776]

After a man has had a few of experiences of women with unreasonable expectations and sees the connection to the way that modern women are socialized, he is likely to become discouraged.  It is not a simple matter of moving on to another woman because he has begun to doubt that a suitable woman even exists.  There is a general problem with women in this culture and saying that men just have to "man-up"  does not recognize this.

Men have the upper hand in modern dating because of a general lack of morality. The price of sex is low and men take advantage of it. Modern women may want the wrong things in some ways but that's because they're told not to expect marriage or commitment from a man so they focus on other things. Most men who go from one woman to another do so because A: they want to and B: they get away with it and are even encouraged by society to be womanizers.

I don't understand what you mean.  I suppose if you are only interested in sex now a days is a good time to be a man (although really its even better to be a woman if this is all you want).  But, I don't see how current society is particularly conducive to a Catholic man interested in marriage.  Indeed, society teaches us that people who approach dating primarily focused on looking for a spouse are desperate.  Men more so than women. 

[JayneK]

This is the point of the article (again, apologies for the immorality):

Given that nice guys get bedded and/or wedded all the time, you must have a more specific problem than that. Here are some specific behaviors I have witnessed in guys who think they’re “too nice” when actually they’re “unpleasant.” Is this you?

It's not talking about all nice guys. The men you mention most likely have trouble finding women because they aren't looking or because they, too, have impossible ideals. No one is saying that every woman is a catch, but you also can't say that every guy is a catch. It's not shaming and blaming; it's constructive criticism in a genuine attempt to help them.

The premise of the article is that nice guys have no problem finding women and that men who think they are nice guys but can't find women are not really nice guys.  In other words, it is the man's own fault he can't find a woman.  And you accept this premise and come with your own ideas about what men are doing wrong.  
 
It is not constructive criticism because it does not acknowledge that the odds are stacked against men.  Good Catholic men are usually going to have a hard time finding a wife.

And most men don't whine about the condition of women either.

Pretty much any time men mention the situation with modern women, it gets dismissed as whining.  This does not mean they really are whining.

[Iolanthe]

After a man has had a few of experiences of women with unreasonable expectations and sees the connection to the way that modern women are socialized, he is likely to become discouraged.  It is not a simple matter of moving on to another woman because he has begun to doubt that a suitable woman even exists.  There is a general problem with women in this culture and saying that men just have to "man-up"  does not recognize this.

Men have the upper hand in modern dating because of a general lack of morality. The price of sex is low and men take advantage of it. Modern women may want the wrong things in some ways but that's because they're told not to expect marriage or commitment from a man so they focus on other things. Most men who go from one woman to another do so because A: they want to and B: they get away with it and are even encouraged by society to be womanizers.

I don't understand what you mean.  I suppose if you are only interested in sex now a days is a good time to be a man (although really its even better to be a woman if this is all you want).  But, I don't see how current society is particularly conducive to a Catholic man interested in marriage.  Indeed, society teaches us that people who approach dating primarily focused on looking for a spouse are desperate.  Men more so than women. 

I was talking specifically about non-Catholics, because that's who I assume the article is written about. Many more women are interested in marriage than will ever let on--it's considered such a no-no for women that people call it the "m word." There isn't a similar stigma attached to men looking for wives, and in fact, it seems that when man decides he wants to get married it's not that hard for him to do so. That's my impression anyway.

It is tougher for Catholics, for lots of reasons. I was just responding about non-Catholics because JayneK was talking about society and all that.

[Someone1776]

Pretty much any time men mention the situation with modern women, it gets dismissed as whining.  This does not mean they really are whining.

Eh, I think it is the god-given right of every single person, male or female, to complain about the opposite sex.  

If we didn't...our heads would explode.    

[The Curt Jester]

As for the nice guys scenario, there may be some truth to what is said, though it's obviously a huge generalization.   Also, everyone probably has a different opinion on what exactly a nice guy is.

It's an over-generalization, but I still find that it applies frequently. Can you expand on what you think a "nice guy" is?

Not really.  I'm just myself and I don't try to label me.  If others think I'm nice or not - well, that's their opinion.   As far as other nice guys go, I'm not searching for any, so I've not come up with any criteria.