Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism?

[Vetus Ordo]

This view of God says that mankind is inherently bad and out to be subjected to pain and suffering. How many of the nastier chapters of Medieval European history might have been avoided, the Inquisition, the torture and the way non-conformist were butchered, if only people hadn't taken such a cruel view of God?

This view of God turns Him from a loving Father into mankind's greatest danger and enemy. It has not only driven millions away from Him it has actually caused them to hate Him. It would be better if this "god" did not exist. Thankfully the modern Catholic Church has began to turn to a more balanced and correct view of God.

 

[Gregory I]

Silouan, you are simply charging windmills...*sigh*

God is love. No question. God wants to save people. No question.

BUT WHAT PART OF Acting in accordance with FORESEEN SINFULNESS do you not get?

THose who are reprobate are reprobate BECAUSE God has FORESEEN their FREE REJECTION of him. THerefore, they are JUSTLY condemned, for they FREELY reject God.

Address THIS issue please, and do not set up strawmen. YOur failure to comprehend Augustine doesn't make him wrong; it means that you are taking the typical byzantine stance and only looking in one direction.

[wulfrano]

So, silouan, you are saying that nobody goes to Hell, because God just "loves us to much."

Those  of us who go to hell do so precisely because of God's love. Genuine love requires freedom and God respects our free will absolutely, even to the point of allowing us to reject Him if we choose to. God's love is all encompassing,  an "all consuming fire." He will be "all in all" and He does not remove His love even from those in hell. In fact many fathers would say that heaven and hell are both God's love experienced as light and beauty by those who accept Him and as pain and torment by those who reject Him.

He is just, because he allows those who choose hell to go there (Though he does not rejoice in their suffering), and he is merciful in sparing some damnation and granting them salvation. Now, YOU CANNOT FIND FAULT with the just judgements of God. Or did you forget the verse: "Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels."?

But that is a contradiction. Because at least the way I understand St Augustine's doctrine He could have spared them hell by predestining them and offering them grace.

He says: "I will be merciful to whom I will be merciful, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." In other words, the Divine majesty says to us mere mortals: "You don't understand; I do what I will BECAUSE I am the source of all being. I give life, I can take it away. And I am NOT capricious, because that implies you holding ME to a moral standard, when I AM the moral standard."

He is morality. The problem is not Him but rather humanities distorted view of Him. If God is just and merciful and condemns countless millions of souls to unspeakable torment for all eternity then how am I to behave? If I have to subject objectionable people to torture or maybe even kill a few it pales in comparison to what our "loving" God will do to them. After all I am made in His image and likeness. Need I be more merciful than God?

This view of God says that mankind is inherently bad and out to be subjected to pain and suffering. How many of the nastier chapters of Medieval European history might have been avoided, the Inquisition, the torture and the way non-conformist were butchered, if only people hadn't taken such a cruel view of God?

This view of God turns Him from a loving Father into mankind's greatest danger and enemy. It has not only driven millions away from Him it has actually caused them to hate Him. It would be better if this "god" did not exist. Thankfully the modern Catholic Church has began to turn to a more balanced and correct view of God.

God loves all his creatures.  All He asks is to be loved in return.  Blessed are those that love Him in return.  I'm thinking specifically of St. Therese of the Little Flower.

[Gregory I]

"He is morality. The problem is not Him but rather humanities distorted view of Him."

This is True.

 "If God is just and merciful and condemns countless millions of souls to unspeakable torment for all eternity then how am I to behave?"

Once again, your deliberate and willful ignorance is clear, after so many corrections, you still contumaciously believe that Augustine taught that GOd willy-nilly damns people who are "innocent."

1. NO one is innocent. No one.
2. Man deserves damnation on the basis of justice. or do you deny this?
3. Man is not randomly swept by God into torment; rather, Man's sinfulness and hardness of heart are foreknown by God, and ON THAT BASIS these reprobates are elected to damnation. BECAUSE OF THEIR FORESEEN SINFULNESS.
4. YOu are to praise God for his justice is how you are to behave.


" If I have to subject objectionable people to torture or maybe even kill a few it pales in comparison to what our "loving" God will do to them. After all I am made in His image and likeness. Need I be more merciful than God? "

This is a farce. Plain and simple; no Augustinian thinks this way, as does NO christian. WE cannot judge the state of a man's soul. But God CAN and DOES. And the state of EVERY MAN'S SOUL FROM THE INSTANT OF CONCEPTION is eternal damnation. Or do you assert that unregenerate man is saved de facto, and only loses heaven through sin which he learns from the bad example of others? If so, you are a Pelagian and a heretic. If not, good, you are at least a semi-Augustinian so far...

Plus, this is simply ridiculous. You are insinuating that the judgements of God are harsher than they should be, and therefore unjust. OUR damnation is the fulfillment of justice. But God is Not justice only, but MERCY for those who believe.

"This view of God says that mankind is inherently bad and out to be subjected to pain and suffering. How many of the nastier chapters of Medieval European history might have been avoided, the Inquisition, the torture an

[Vetus Ordo]

Good post, Gregory.

[wulfrano]

Good post, Gregory.

St. John says: "God is love".

[Doce Me]

1. NO one is innocent. No one.

You mean nobody but Christ, Our Lady, a baptized baby, and a soul in the state of sanctifying grace (for the sake of discussion here, suppose the soul is also baptized, but has had sinned and then had his sins forgiven) - don't you?  (I do know you mean the first two!).  Of course the number of these souls is few.

Just wanted to double check!

I think there are degrees of innocence - Christ and His Mother are the only ones who are purely innocent; a baptized baby has more innocence than a man later in life.  But a baptized man in the state of grace is innocent too, even if to a lesser degree. His innocence comes purely from God's life in his soul.

[Gregory I]

There is no natural innocence Doce, correct. Those conceived in this world are all guilty of original sin which deprives us of heaven, and sends us to hell. We have all lost the original holiness and justice in Adam.

AFTER BAPTISM...whole other story.

And of COURSE the BVM and Jesus Christ being the known exceptions.

However, my point in all of this is that MAN CANNOT INITIATE A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. And in fact, man can never WILL to initiate a relationship with God. Man does not have the power of intiation, nor does he seek after God in his fallen nature. Therefore, those who are NOT called to salvation are not sitting around going "Oh, man! I wanted to be saved too, but I guess I can't be. Shucks!!!"

They have received what they sought after: Vanity and death. Therefore, it is fitting and just that Hell is their just reward, for they have never turned toward God nor sought after him. THey have only lived for themselves and abide under his wrath, as St.Paul says IN THE BIBLE.

But when God CALLS a man to himself, he strikes the heart of the man with grace; and this grace is delightful man, and he sees it as his highest good, and he wills to turn away from sin, and to follow after god, and to seek to be in the glorious beauty and presence of his being. He seeks, and he longs, and he aches; for he is called, and his will cannot help but respond. Who can resist what  the will sees as the highest good? Not that man is not free; man COULD resist intrinsically. But he will not. He does not IN FACT. THe grace of God is infallible in its effect; for it is the will of God. And who can stand against his will?

[wulfrano]

There is no natural innocence Doce, correct. Those conceived in this world are all guilty of original sin which deprives us of heaven, and sends us to hell. We have all lost the original holiness and justice in Adam.

AFTER BAPTISM...whole other story.

And of COURSE the BVM and Jesus Christ being the known exceptions.

However, my point in all of this is that MAN CANNOT INITIATE A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. And in fact, man can never WILL to initiate a relationship with God. Man does not have the power of intiation, nor does he seek after God in his fallen nature. Therefore, those who are NOT called to salvation are not sitting around going "Oh, man! I wanted to be saved too, but I guess I can't be. Shucks!!!"

They have received what they sought after: Vanity and death. Therefore, it is fitting and just that Hell is their just reward, for they have never turned toward God nor sought after him. THey have only lived for themselves and abide under his wrath, as St.Paul says IN THE BIBLE.

But when God CALLS a man to himself, he strikes the heart of the man with grace; and this grace is delightful man, and he sees it as his highest good, and he wills to turn away from sin, and to follow after god, and to seek to be in the glorious beauty and presence of his being. He seeks, and he longs, and he aches; for he is called, and his will cannot help but respond. Who can resist what  the will sees as the highest good? Not that man is not free; man COULD resist intrinsically. But he will not. He does not IN FACT. THe grace of God is infallible in its effect; for it is the will of God. And who can stand against his will?

I think I know what you are trying to say in your last paragraph and I agree.

[Mithrandylan]

There is no natural innocence Doce, correct. Those conceived in this world are all guilty of original sin which deprives us of heaven, and sends us to hell. We have all lost the original holiness and justice in Adam.

AFTER BAPTISM...whole other story.

And of COURSE the BVM and Jesus Christ being the known exceptions.

However, my point in all of this is that MAN CANNOT INITIATE A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. And in fact, man can never WILL to initiate a relationship with God. Man does not have the power of intiation, nor does he seek after God in his fallen nature. Therefore, those who are NOT called to salvation are not sitting around going "Oh, man! I wanted to be saved too, but I guess I can't be. Shucks!!!"

They have received what they sought after: Vanity and death. Therefore, it is fitting and just that Hell is their just reward, for they have never turned toward God nor sought after him. THey have only lived for themselves and abide under his wrath, as St.Paul says IN THE BIBLE.

But when God CALLS a man to himself, he strikes the heart of the man with grace; and this grace is delightful man, and he sees it as his highest good, and he wills to turn away from sin, and to follow after god, and to seek to be in the glorious beauty and presence of his being. He seeks, and he longs, and he aches; for he is called, and his will cannot help but respond. Who can resist what  the will sees as the highest good? Not that man is not free; man COULD resist intrinsically. But he will not. He does not IN FACT. THe grace of God is infallible in its effect; for it is the will of God. And who can stand against his will?

I think I know what you are trying to say in your last paragraph and I agree.

Regarding your last paragraph.  Why definition are you using of called?  Could think of a hell of a lot of people who were called that didn't answer the call.  How about every non practicing Catholic?  They were blessed to be born in the faith and have a step up on everybody else in the salvation game and they don't want anything to do with it.

How about Martin Luther?  Dude was a monastic and had all the right pieces in place as well.

How can you say that man could resist but doesn't?  What about our own lives.  Would think that we've all, in one capactity or another- either by being born into traditional catholicism or by finding it after a life of sin- are called to Our Heavenly Father.  Then how do you explain sin?  Have you never sinned since you became Catholic?

Maybe you haven't.  Maybe I'm the only one.  But I don't think so.  How would you explain that Gregory?