Mithrandylan
Banned for promoting sedevacantism
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Divínum auxílium ✝ maneat semper nobíscum.
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« Reply #240 on: August 03, 2011, 10:19:AM » |
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Further, might I remind you that at every mass the priest and the congregation admits to rejecting God's grace during the Confiteor.
So maybe the called don't reject God's grace. But if that's true then the called can't be Catholics.
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wulfrano
Founder of CAM (Católicos Anti Montinianos)
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« Reply #241 on: August 03, 2011, 05:21:PM » |
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There is no natural innocence Doce, correct. Those conceived in this world are all guilty of original sin which deprives us of heaven, and sends us to hell. We have all lost the original holiness and justice in Adam.
AFTER BAPTISM...whole other story.
And of COURSE the BVM and Jesus Christ being the known exceptions.
However, my point in all of this is that MAN CANNOT INITIATE A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. And in fact, man can never WILL to initiate a relationship with God. Man does not have the power of intiation, nor does he seek after God in his fallen nature. Therefore, those who are NOT called to salvation are not sitting around going "Oh, man! I wanted to be saved too, but I guess I can't be. Shucks!!!"
They have received what they sought after: Vanity and death. Therefore, it is fitting and just that Hell is their just reward, for they have never turned toward God nor sought after him. THey have only lived for themselves and abide under his wrath, as St.Paul says IN THE BIBLE.
But when God CALLS a man to himself, he strikes the heart of the man with grace; and this grace is delightful man, and he sees it as his highest good, and he wills to turn away from sin, and to follow after god, and to seek to be in the glorious beauty and presence of his being. He seeks, and he longs, and he aches; for he is called, and his will cannot help but respond. Who can resist what the will sees as the highest good? Not that man is not free; man COULD resist intrinsically. But he will not. He does not IN FACT. THe grace of God is infallible in its effect; for it is the will of God. And who can stand against his will?
I think I know what you are trying to say in your last paragraph and I agree. Regarding your last paragraph. Why definition are you using of called? Could think of a hell of a lot of people who were called that didn't answer the call. How about every non practicing Catholic? They were blessed to be born in the faith and have a step up on everybody else in the salvation game and they don't want anything to do with it. How about Martin Luther? Dude was a monastic and had all the right pieces in place as well. How can you say that man could resist but doesn't? What about our own lives. Would think that we've all, in one capactity or another- either by being born into traditional catholicism or by finding it after a life of sin- are called to Our Heavenly Father. Then how do you explain sin? Have you never sinned since you became Catholic? Maybe you haven't. Maybe I'm the only one. But I don't think so. How would you explain that Gregory? God loves everyone... but not to the same extent. He loves some more than others. The great saints are his most loved. |
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Gregory I
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« Reply #242 on: August 03, 2011, 06:27:PM » |
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The grace of CONVERSION is intrinsically, and infallibly efficacious. OTHER specific graces may be resisted, because they are not all intrinsically effixacious. Ask St. Augustine.
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F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicum, 7:398, 1943)
Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his election, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948)
De Lugo: “Neither is someone a schismatic for denying his subjection to the Pontiff on the grounds that he has solidly founded [‘probabiliter’] doubts concerning the legitimacy of his election or his power [refers to Sanchez and Palao].” (Disp., De Virt. Fid. Div., disp xxv, sect iii, nn. 35-8)
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wulfrano
Founder of CAM (Católicos Anti Montinianos)
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« Reply #243 on: August 03, 2011, 06:31:PM » |
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The grace of CONVERSION is intrinsically, and infallibly efficacious. OTHER specific graces may be resisted, because they are not all intrinsically effixacious. Ask St. Augustine.
This. |
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Walty
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« Reply #244 on: August 03, 2011, 06:41:PM » |
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The grace of CONVERSION is intrinsically, and infallibly efficacious. OTHER specific graces may be resisted, because they are not all intrinsically effixacious. Ask St. Augustine.
To be honest, I think both Augustine and Thomas take things further. I believe they say that no graces can be resisted. |
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The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes;
she is tolerant in practice because she loves.
The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe;
they are intolerant in practice because they do not love. Timorem Domini docebo vos. |
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wulfrano
Founder of CAM (Católicos Anti Montinianos)
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« Reply #245 on: August 03, 2011, 07:03:PM » |
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The grace of CONVERSION is intrinsically, and infallibly efficacious. OTHER specific graces may be resisted, because they are not all intrinsically effixacious. Ask St. Augustine.
To be honest, I think both Augustine and Thomas take things further. I believe they say that no graces can be resisted. Will you please quote your sources? |
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Gregory I
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« Reply #246 on: August 03, 2011, 07:29:PM » |
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NO. St. THomas talks about intrinsically efficacious grace. Me also talks about merely sufficient grace. According to THomists, all men are given merely sufficient grace to be saved. BUT this "sufficient grace" is not ACTUALIZED unless God first ENABLES it with his enabling grace. An the ENABLING grace of GOd is intrinsically efficacious. Therefore, all who are elect and destined to be saved, WILL be saved, not against their will, but because he enables the sufficient grace that he gives in the hearts of some men. Others, he passively reprobates by simply NOT electing them to salvation.
This is related to the issue of "proximate power." That's somewhat off-topic.
Now, AUGUSTINE is a tad different. Augustine sees all grace that is given is given only for one end: to draw the soul to God. All grace, even if it be of different types or species, is oriented toward the salvation of man.
Now, specific types and OCCASIONS of grace ARE in fact resisted by man. There is no doubt, because I have been there. But for Augustine, "grace" is not simply a momentary grace, grace is the work of God in the soul throughout
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F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicum, 7:398, 1943)
Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his election, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948)
De Lugo: “Neither is someone a schismatic for denying his subjection to the Pontiff on the grounds that he has solidly founded [‘probabiliter’] doubts concerning the legitimacy of his election or his power [refers to Sanchez and Palao].” (Disp., De Virt. Fid. Div., disp xxv, sect iii, nn. 35-8)
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
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† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †
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« Reply #247 on: August 03, 2011, 07:33:PM » |
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I think reply #47 explains it quite well, actually. It requires that one read through it slowly and think deeply at each step; but after understanding what is being said, I am not sure why there is still so much confusion.
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I n N omine P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no. 9, June 29, 1896). “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).
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wulfrano
Founder of CAM (Católicos Anti Montinianos)
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« Reply #248 on: August 03, 2011, 09:51:PM » |
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NO. St. THomas talks about intrinsically efficacious grace. Me also talks about merely sufficient grace. According to THomists, all men are given merely sufficient grace to be saved. BUT this "sufficient grace" is not ACTUALIZED unless God first ENABLES it with his enabling grace. An the ENABLING grace of GOd is intrinsically efficacious. Therefore, all who are elect and destined to be saved, WILL be saved, not against their will, but because he enables the sufficient grace that he gives in the hearts of some men. Others, he passively reprobates by simply NOT electing them to salvation.
This is related to the issue of "proximate power." That's somewhat off-topic.
Now, AUGUSTINE is a tad different. Augustine sees all grace that is given is given only for one end: to draw the soul to God. All grace, even if it be of different types or species, is oriented toward the salvation of man.
Now, specific types and OCCASIONS of grace ARE in fact resisted by man. There is no doubt, because I have been there. But for Augustine, "grace" is not simply a momentary grace, grace is the work of God in the soul throughout
This.
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Gregory I
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« Reply #249 on: August 04, 2011, 03:15:AM » |
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SO TELL me Molinists.
What is it in Particular about Molinism that you find worthy of belief? Despite the fact that it is Novel...
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F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicum, 7:398, 1943)
Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his election, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948)
De Lugo: “Neither is someone a schismatic for denying his subjection to the Pontiff on the grounds that he has solidly founded [‘probabiliter’] doubts concerning the legitimacy of his election or his power [refers to Sanchez and Palao].” (Disp., De Virt. Fid. Div., disp xxv, sect iii, nn. 35-8)
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