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Author Topic: Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism?  (Read 13144 times)
Doce Me
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« Reply #260 on: August 04, 2011, 05:06:PM »

The grace of CONVERSION is intrinsically, and infallibly efficacious. OTHER specific graces may be resisted, because they are not all intrinsically effixacious.  Ask St. Augustine.

To be honest, I think both Augustine and Thomas take things further.  I believe they say that no graces can be resisted.

Will you please quote your sources?


Perhaps.  To be honest, I'm writing an MA thesis paper on this topic at the moment and it's giving me quite a headache.  But, I don't think there's a huge distinction between election and grace in Thomas, both of which, in a rejection of any sort of Pelagianism or Molinism, come entirely from divine providence.

I'll see if I can dig up some specific quotations.

Here is another relevant quote from St. Thomas. 
Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas
Summa Theologica  Ia IIae

Question 113. The effects of grace

(In Article 2 he establishes that the infusion of grace is required for the remission of guilt, i.e. for the justification of the ungodly?)

Article 3. Whether for the justification of the ungodly is required a movement of the free-will?

I answer that, The justification of the ungodly is brought about by God moving man to justice. For He it is "that justifieth the ungodly" according to Romans 4:5. Now God moves everything in its own manner, just as we see that in natural things, what is heavy and what is light are moved differently, on account of their diverse natures. Hence He moves man to justice according to the condition of his human nature. But it is man's proper nature to have free-will. Hence in him who has the use of reason, God's motion to justice does not take place without a movement of the free-will; but He so infuses the gift of justifying grace that at the same time He moves the free-will to accept the gift of grace, in such as are capable of being moved thus.


So God moves the free-will even as the grace is being accepted.  But the free-will is a part of human nature. When God moves it there is no "force".  It is moving just as (or more) freely as it does in every good thing we do. Man is truly cooperating with God. Man must cooperate. 
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Doce Me Veritatem (Teach me truth) - Mt. Saint Mary College motto

Everybody who is incapable of learning has taken to teaching. - Oscar Wilde

How can we live in harmony? First we need to know we are all madly in love with the same God. - St. Thomas Aquinas (from lists of quotes)
wulfrano
Founder of CAM (Católicos Anti Montinianos)
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Location: Tijuana, Baja California, México
Personality type: choleric and sanguine
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« Reply #261 on: August 04, 2011, 05:13:PM »

The grace of CONVERSION is intrinsically, and infallibly efficacious. OTHER specific graces may be resisted, because they are not all intrinsically effixacious.  Ask St. Augustine.

To be honest, I think both Augustine and Thomas take things further.  I believe they say that no graces can be resisted.

Will you please quote your sources?


Perhaps.  To be honest, I'm writing an MA thesis paper on this topic at the moment and it's giving me quite a headache.  But, I don't think there's a huge distinction between election and grace in Thomas, both of which, in a rejection of any sort of Pelagianism or Molinism, come entirely from divine providence.

I'll see if I can dig up some specific quotations.

Here is another relevant quote from St. Thomas. 
Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas
Summa Theologica  Ia IIae

Question 113. The effects of grace

(In Article 2 he establishes that the infusion of grace is required for the remission of guilt, i.e. for the justification of the ungodly?)

Article 3. Whether for the justification of the ungodly is required a movement of the free-will?

I answer that, The justification of the ungodly is brought about by God moving man to justice. For He it is "that justifieth the ungodly" according to Romans 4:5. Now God moves everything in its own manner, just as we see that in natural things, what is heavy and what is light are moved differently, on account of their diverse natures. Hence He moves man to justice according to the condition of his human nature. But it is man's proper nature to have free-will. Hence in him who has the use of reason, God's motion to justice does not take place without a movement of the free-will; but He so infuses the gift of justifying grace that at the same time He moves the free-will to accept the gift of grace, in such as are capable of being moved thus.


So God moves the free-will even as the grace is being accepted.  But the free-will is a part of human nature. When God moves it there is no "force".  It is moving just as (or more) freely as it does in every good thing we do. Man is truly cooperating with God. Man must cooperate. 


Bravo, St. Thomas!

@ Doce me.  Now you understand why I love more St. Thomas than Molina.
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Doce Me
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Posts: 1,950



« Reply #262 on: August 04, 2011, 05:15:PM »

Are molinists sinning by holding their beliefs?

I don't think so.

But that's not really the point.

Then what IS the point? If either belief can be held without hindering their closeness to God, then why is this such a big deal?

It is becoming closer to God to learn more about His ways - unless we are neglecting our duties and other priorities God gives us.

I know it is easy to spend too much time here (at least for myself). 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 05:18:PM by Doce Me » Logged

Doce Me Veritatem (Teach me truth) - Mt. Saint Mary College motto

Everybody who is incapable of learning has taken to teaching. - Oscar Wilde

How can we live in harmony? First we need to know we are all madly in love with the same God. - St. Thomas Aquinas (from lists of quotes)
INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
Member

Gender: Male
Personality type: Mostly melancholic
Posts: 10,860


† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †


« Reply #263 on: August 04, 2011, 05:16:PM »

Yes, but saying "Aquinas says this" and expecting that to settle it while igniring molinist thinkers is a specious form of an argument from authority...leaving aside the "evidence" for a second, why is it that you feel that Thomism is the only acceptable way to view God?

How do you expect to settle any issue at all if not by citing authoritative texts? If people have cited St. Augustine, St. Thomas, the Council of Orange, Popes, etc., it's precisely to drive home an important point with the back up of renowned authorities, it's not just to "flash a badge" so to speak.

I believe that Augustinian and Thomist views on predestination are more in line with Scripture and the concepts of divine omnipotence, sovereignty, justice and mercy. Certainly, this is not an easy topic and there's an inherent mystery in how free will and God's immutable decrees work together that can never be fully explained. Nevertheless, some key concepts must be held by necessity of revelation and logic. In this thread alone, Gregory has expounded abundantly on this issue, as well as Walty and INPEFESS.

I think the matter has been well presented.

I agree that it has been well presented (though it would be unfair to Doce Me, Gregory I, and yourself were I to take any credit for this).

I have been pondering this issue and trying to pin-point the exact discrepancy with the so-called Molinists. I have never tried to explain this before, but there is much to be gleaned from the the sources already quoted. I will take a stab at addressing the issue that I believe to be the "sticking point" (as it were) for the Molinists* (though I can't guarantee I won't confuse things even more).

I think that, in order to begin, we need to have a working definition for sufficient grace. Let's try this: Sufficient grace is not grace that, of itself, is sufficient for salvation; rather, sufficient grace is that grace which is always potentially sufficient (like the flower) for efficacious grace (the fruit).

Efficacious grace, by contrast, is that grace which is always effectual for salvation.

These two graces must work together in order to effect salvation. By this it is meant that sufficient grace is only sufficient for salvation when it has been complemented by efficacious grace via the free co-operation of the will with sufficient grace. In this way, efficacious grace proceeds from sufficient grace as the fruit proceeds from the flower.

Thus it can be said that sufficient grace yields the fruit of efficacious grace only after the potentiality of sufficient grace has been actualized by the will’s free co-operation with this sufficient grace. A person whose free co-operation with sufficient grace has yielded efficacious grace is considered “elected” by God’s will. So, as Bossuet says, "one of these graces leaves the will without excuse before God, and the other does not permit the will to glory in itself."

I think everyone agrees up to this point. The tricky part is when we start talking about the role one's will plays in this process, because at this point in the understanding, the Molinist objects: 'But if this election through efficacious grace were contingent upon the will's free co-operation with sufficient grace, then the will is still the principal saving agent because the will freely chose to co-operate with sufficient grace, which inevitably yields election. In this way, it is principally the activity of the free will--not God's will--that saves the soul.'

This appears to be a valid objection, but it is much more complex than that; and this complexity is further complicated by the fact that, based on the nature of this particular grace, there is nothing in the material universe that is perfectly analogous to efficacious grace. But I will try to explain it and then use an imperfect analogy which, though it fails given certain conditions, nevertheless should get the point across to the Molinist.
 
The objection of the Molinist fails to take something essential into account: that efficacious grace and free will are not mutually exclusive; in fact, they function together in perfect harmony. It must be understood that efficacious grace requires the will to freely co-operate with it in order for it be effectual. So, the free will always retains the power to resist this efficacious grace (calling by God), but, because of the compelling nature of this grace, there are none who will choose to resist it. For once their free co-operation has attracted (as a condition of their free co-operation with sufficient grace) the attention of the will of God to save them, He will see to it that they do not perish.

But why is it said that there are none who will choose to resist it? It is said that there are none who will choose to resist it because, once a soul has beheld the overwhelming goodness of God, there are none who would prefer the world to His infinite goodness. Nevertheless, each soul retains its own power to resist at any time, but, similar to the teaching that the free will is unwilling to offend God once the soul has enjoyed the Beatific Vision (for to do so would be a contradiction), there is no soul that can prefer evil over the supreme goodness of God enjoyed by the effects of efficacious grace.

The lack of a perfect analogy becomes a problem when the Molinist objects that, even though one can prefer something, he still has the power to resist it, so, theoretically, a soul could do so. This could be true, but only theoretically so. In the practical order, a soul that has experienced this efficacious grace (and beheld the goodness of God) is compelled to persevere to the end, for it is the free co-operation of the soul that Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange says is 'gently and mightily stirred up in us and confirmed.' Theoretically, a soul could resist, but it won't. The soul is compelled to comply because it is made in the image and likeness of God and sees Him in its own reflection made by the light of efficacious grace. Though the soul retains the power to resist this beautiful grace, it is useless for the soul to resist its own image and likeness. The soul has beheld good, and it has loved it; it now feels compelled to follow this goodness to the end.

Now for a less-than-adequate analogy of the reciprocal of efficacious grace to try to make it more comprehensive . . .

Suppose, for example, that a healthy man wakes to find himself laid upon a gridiron by Roman soldiers. The Roman soldiers ignite the fire beneath the gridiron before fleeing their post to save themselves from an approaching ambush. Provided that the man is not restrained to the gridiron, has a properly functioning nervous system, has no intention of killing himself, and is not severely depressed, what man would not be compelled to remove himself from the growing heat of the gridiron lest he should be cooked alive? It is true that he retains his free will to remain upon the gridiron (and I'm sure that it is impossible to completely reject the very small possibility that a man might do so if for no other reason than to prove that he has the free will to do so), but every fiber of his being is compelled to escape the danger. If we assume that there is no threat to his life or well-being for doing so, he will remove himself from the gridiron every time.

It is at the conclusion of the analogy that we have two seemingly-dichotomous propositions: He is compelled to remove himself from the gridiron. But no-one forces him to do so; he does so of his own free will.

They are reconciled in the understanding of the source of his being compelled to remove himself. It is not by his own will that the instinct to remove himself from the fire beneath the gridiron is stirred up in him. He has no control over this instinct, but it is efficacious nonetheless in compelling him to remove himself from the fire. The only role he plays is that the fails to employ his free will to resist this overwhelming instinct. Thus, it is the instinct that saves him; his free simply fails to resist the instinct. Hence, it is the instinct stirred up within him by God that is the primary cause of his safety and his free will that is the secondary (compliant) cause.

As it concerns efficacious grace, then, it is God who actually saves us; His will is the primary cause. For though it was by man’s free will that he attracted God’s almighty will to elect Him to salvation, it is God's almighty will—not man's—that numbers a soul among the elect.  

(If I have spoken erroneously or in any way misrepresented the Thomistic understanding of this concept, then please correct me. I am only trying to help; I do not want to confuse the issue.)



* Please note that I am not intending to use this label condescendingly. Anyone here is free to refer to label me with the label that most appropriately corresponds with the Thomistic/Augustinian approach. (Please avoid accusations of Calvinism, though.)
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 05:48:PM by INPEFESS » Logged

I  n
N omine
P atris,
E t
F ilii,
E t
S piritus
S ancti

"The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no.  9, June 29, 1896).

“Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).

wulfrano
Founder of CAM (Católicos Anti Montinianos)
Member

Gender: Male
Location: Tijuana, Baja California, México
Personality type: choleric and sanguine
Posts: 1,217



WWW
« Reply #264 on: August 04, 2011, 05:19:PM »

Yes, but saying "Aquinas says this" and expecting that to settle it while igniring molinist thinkers is a specious form of an argument from authority...leaving aside the "evidence" for a second, why is it that you feel that Thomism is the only acceptable way to view God?

How do you expect to settle any issue at all if not by citing authoritative texts? If people have cited St. Augustine, St. Thomas, the Council of Orange, Popes, etc., it's precisely to drive home an important point with the back up of renowned authorities, it's not just to "flash a badge" so to speak.

I believe that Augustinian and Thomist views on predestination are more in line with Scripture and the concepts of divine omnipotence, sovereignty, justice and mercy. Certainly, this is not an easy topic and there's an inherent mystery in how free will and God's immutable decrees work together that can never be fully explained. Nevertheless, some key concepts must be held by necessity of revelation and logic. In this thread alone, Gregory has expounded abundantly on this issue, as well as Walty and INPEFESS.

I think the matter has been well presented.

I agree that it has been well presented (though it would be unfair to Doce Me, Gregory I, and yourself were I to take any credit for this).

I have been pondering this issue and trying to pin-point the exact discrepancy with the so-called Molinists. I have never tried to explain this before, but there is much to be gleaned from the the sources already quoted. I will take a stab at addressing the issue that I believe to be the "sticking point" (as it were) for the Molinists* (though I can't guarantee I won't confuse things even more).

Let's begin with this blatantly obvious truth: The elect are saved. But that's not really the problem (at least I hope not).
 
I think that, in order to proceed, we need to have a working definition for sufficient grace. Let's try this: Sufficient grace is not grace that, of itself, is sufficient for salvation; rather, sufficient grace is that grace which is always potentially sufficient (like the flower) for efficacious grace (the fruit).

Efficacious grace, by contrast, is that grace which is always effectual for salvation.

These two graces must work together in order to effect salvation. By this it is meant that sufficient grace is only sufficient for salvation when it has been complemented by efficacious grace via the free co-operation of the will with sufficient grace. In this way, efficacious grace proceeds from sufficient grace as the fruit proceeds from the flower.

Thus it can be said that sufficient grace yields the fruit of efficacious grace only after the potentiality of sufficient grace has been actualized by the will’s free co-operation with this sufficient grace. A person whose free co-operation with sufficient grace has yielded efficacious grace is considered “elected” by God’s will. So, as Bossuet says, the former of these graces "leaves the will without excuse before God, and the other does not permit the will to glory in itself."

I think everyone agrees up to this point. The tricky part is when we start talking about the role one's will plays in this process, because at this point in the understanding, the Molinist objects: 'But if this election through efficacious grace were contingent upon the will's free co-operation with sufficient grace, then the will is still the principal saving agent because the will freely chose to co-operate with sufficient grace, which inevitably yields election. In this way, it is principally the activity of the free will--not God's will--that saves the soul.'

This appears to be a valid objection, but it is much more complex than that; and this complexity is further complicated by the fact that, based on the nature of this particular grace, there is nothing in the material universe that is perfectly analogous to efficacious grace. But I will try to explain it and then use an imperfect analogy which, though it fails given certain conditions, nevertheless should get the point across to the Molinist.
 
The objection of the Molinist fails to take something essential into account: that efficacious grace and free will are not mutually exclusive; in fact, they function together in perfect harmony. It must be understood that efficacious grace requires the will to freely co-operate with it in order for it be effectual. So, the free will always retains the power to resist this efficacious grace (calling by God), but, because of the compelling nature of this grace, there are none who will choose to resist it. For once their free co-operation has attracted (as a condition of their free co-operation with sufficient grace) the attention of the will of God to save them, He will see to it that they do not perish.

But why is it said that there are none who will choose to resist it? It is said that there are none who will choose to resist it because, once one has beheld the overwhelming goodness of God, there are none who would prefer the world to His infinite goodness. Nevertheless, each soul retains its own power to resist at any time, but, similar to the teaching that the free will is unable to offend God once the soul has enjoyed the Beatific Vision, there is no soul that can prefer evil over the supreme goodness of God enjoyed by the effects of efficacious grace.

The lack of a perfect analogy becomes a problem when the Molinist objects that, even though one can prefer something, he still has the power to resist it, so, theoretically, a soul could do so. This could be true, but only theoretically so. In the practical order, a soul that has experienced this efficacious grace (and beheld the goodness of God) is compelled to persevere to the end, for it is the free co-operation of the soul that Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange says is 'gently and mightily stirred up in us and confirmed.' Theoretically, a soul could resist, but it won't. The soul is compelled to comply because it is made in the image and likeness of God and sees Him in its own reflection made by the light of efficacious grace. Though the soul retains the power to resist this beautiful grace, it is useless for the soul to resist its own image and likeness. The soul has beheld good, and it has loved it; it now feels compelled to follow this goodness to the end.

Now for a less-than-adequate analogy of the reciprocal of efficacious grace to try to make it more comprehensive . . .

Suppose, for example, that a healthy man wakes to find himself laid upon a gridiron by Roman soldiers. The Roman soldiers ignite the fire beneath the gridiron before fleeing their post to save themselves from an approaching ambush. Provided that the man is not restrained to the gridiron, has a properly functioning nervous system, has no intention of killing himself, and is not severely depressed, what man would not be compelled to remove himself from the growing heat of the gridiron lest he should be cooked alive? It is true that he retains his free will to remain upon the gridiron (and I'm sure that it is impossible to completely reject the very small possibility that a man might do so if for no other reason than to prove that he has the free will to do so), but every fiber of his being is compelled to escape the danger. If we assume that there is no threat to his life or well-being for doing so, he will remove himself from the gridiron every time.

It is at the conclusion of the analogy that we have two seemingly-dichotomous propositions: He is compelled to remove himself from the gridiron. But no-one forces him to do so; he does so of his own free will.

They are reconciled in the understanding of the source of his being compelled to remove himself. It is not by his own will that the instinct to remove himself from the fire beneath the gridiron is stirred up in him. He has no control over this instinct, but it is efficacious nonetheless in compelling him to remove himself from the fire. The only role he plays is that the fails to employ his free will to resist this overwhelming instinct. Thus, it is the instinct that saves him; his free simply fails to resist the instinct. Hence, it is the instinct placed stirred up within him by God that is the primary cause of his safety and his free will that is the secondary (compliant) cause.

As it concerns efficacious grace, it is God who actually saves us; for though it was by man’s free will that he attracted God’s almighty will to save Him, it is God's almighty will—not man's—that numbers a soul among the elect.  

If I have spoken incorrectly or in any way misrepresenting the Thomistic understanding of this concept, then please correct me. I am only trying to help; I do not want to confuse the issue.



* Please note that I am not intending to use this label condescendingly. Anyone here is free to refer to label me with the label that most appropriately corresponds with the Thomistic/Augustinian approach. (Please avoid accusations of Calvinism, though.)



St. Agustine, pray for us.
St. Thomas, pray for us.
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Melkite
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Gender: Male
Posts: 4,211



« Reply #265 on: August 04, 2011, 07:49:PM »

And I mean, aside from "Aquinas or X believed it to be so".  


 Way to go!

Aquinas, Augustine and Scripture have been amptly quoted.

You can't simply dismiss that.

I'm not dismissing Augustine or Aquinas.  I'm dismissing the attitude of 'hmm, I have a question, let's go to Augustine and Aquinas' and once finding an answer there, concluding it's either the only possible answer or that there is no point in looking anywhere else.
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Melkite
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 4,211



« Reply #266 on: August 04, 2011, 07:55:PM »

When God moves it there is no "force".  It is moving just as (or more) freely as it does in every good thing we do.


Um, things don't move without force.  There is no movement without force.  Our wills move to act either because God forces a movement or we do.
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Melkite
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 4,211



« Reply #267 on: August 04, 2011, 08:08:PM »

Inpefess, I see two possible holes in your argument off the top of my head.  If it were practically impossible to resist the good once it has been seen, then the original sin would presumably never have taken place.  The Original sin took place because Adam, who saw the good as perfectly as he was capable, resisted it anyway, and was tempted to resist it by one who saw everything the elect will see, and presumably more that no man shall ever see, and also resisted the good as well.  If good were inherently irresistable once seen, neither fall should ever have taken place.
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
Member

Gender: Male
Personality type: Mostly melancholic
Posts: 10,860


† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †


« Reply #268 on: August 04, 2011, 09:10:PM »

Inpefess, I see two possible holes in your argument off the top of my head.  If it were practically impossible to resist the good once it has been seen, then the original sin would presumably never have taken place. 

No. Efficacious grace does not mean one will never sin. It means that one will persevere to the end such that, in the end, he will choose good.

Quote
The Original sin took place because Adam, who saw the good as perfectly as he was capable, resisted it anyway, and was tempted to resist it by one who saw everything the elect will see,

Adam didn't see the Beatific Vision before he fell.

Quote
and presumably more that no man shall ever see, and also resisted the good as well.  If good were inherently irresistable once seen, neither fall should ever have taken place.

See above.
Logged

I  n
N omine
P atris,
E t
F ilii,
E t
S piritus
S ancti

"The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no.  9, June 29, 1896).

“Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).

Melkite
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 4,211



« Reply #269 on: August 04, 2011, 09:34:PM »

Inpefess, I see two possible holes in your argument off the top of my head.  If it were practically impossible to resist the good once it has been seen, then the original sin would presumably never have taken place. 

No. Efficacious grace does not mean one will never sin. It means that one will persevere to the end such that, in the end, he will choose good.

Quote
The Original sin took place because Adam, who saw the good as perfectly as he was capable, resisted it anyway, and was tempted to resist it by one who saw everything the elect will see,

Adam didn't see the Beatific Vision before he fell.

Quote



 and presumably more that no man shall ever see, and also resisted the good as well.  If good were inherently irresistable once seen, neither fall should ever have taken place.

See above.

Satan was the highest of angels, how could he not have seen God?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 10:25:PM by Melkite » Logged
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