Douay-Rheims chair of pestilence!

[dcana]

Hi, I'm new here.  I consider myself a traditional Catholic, but do not agree that VCII was from hell or that Pope Benedict is an antipope.  If, because of that, I am not considered a true "trad" Catholic, so be it.  I have been praying the Divine Office for 10 years now, and have become interested in praying the psalms in Latin, like the monastics have done for centuries, using, in fact, the very same words.  I just think that would be cool.  I have also become interested in the EF form of the Liturgy and, consequently, have become interested in the Vulgate, as virtually every text from the Mass (as well as the Divine Office) is taken from it.  I have been considering purchasing Baronius Press' DR/Clementine Vulgate Bible but haven't yet decided whether to take the plunge.  I don't particularly like the archaic style of English in the DR, but that's not my main problem.  I am finding that, oftentimes, the Douay-Rheims just doesn't make good sense.  I know that the Vulgate has been declared free from doctrinal and moral errors, but that doesn't imply that it is the best translation of the Bible, or even a particularly good one.  As long as there is no change in the doctrinal or moral sense of a particular text, improvements can be made.  I want to just say the heck with it and just start using it, but I just can't get past the poor-to-nonsensical English in many verses.  Here are some examples I found from the first 17 Psalms.  I quit at 17 because that's all I felt like doing.  I'm sure I could find even more egregious examples in the remaining 133 Psalms.

The first snippet is from the DR, the second is from the RSV (one is from the Masoretic text).  If someone ever publishes an English translation of the Nova Vulgata, I think I'll just go with that, although I know most "trads" hate it for some reason.  I thought about making my own "translation" of the psalms using the following rules:  1. Use the DR/Vulgate if at all possible, 2. Put the text into standard modern English, 3. If the text just doesn't make any sense, use the Nova Vulgata, taking the translation of the RSV as a guide, if appropriate.  After many weeks, I got all the way up to Psalm 14 but then got tired and quit.  Anyway, here are some examples:

1:1 chair of pestilence (what's that?)    seat of scoffers (makes sense - hereafter I'll just post the text of the RSV)

2:13 When his wrath shall be kindled in a short time, blessed are all they that trust in him. (not a proper sentence)    ...lest he be angry, and you perish in the way; for his wrath is quickly kindled.

3:5 and he hath heard me from his holy hill. (Holy hill? How about holy mountain? The Vulgate has "et exaudivit me de monte sancto suo," after all.)

4:2 when I was in distress, thou hast enlarged me (huh?)     Thou who didst set me free when I was in distress" (Masoretic)

4:8 By the fruit of their corn, their wine, and oil, they are multiplied (?)   Thou hast put more joy in my heart than they have when their grain and wine abound

5:5 In the morning I will stand before thee, and I will see: because... (will see what?)       in the morning I prepare a sacrifice for thee, and watch

7:7 and be thou exalted in the borders of my enemies (?)     lift thyself up against the fury of my enemies
7:10 the searcher of hearts and reins is God (reins?  Yes, I looked up the meaning of "renes" and found, besides "kidneys," it can also mean "the inner seat of affections."  This is why the RSV wisely translates it as "minds."  I went with "affections."  Don't even get me started on the frequent reference to "bowels.")       thou who triest the minds and hearts
7:14 And in it (in what?) he hath prepared to (?) instruments of death, he hath made ready his arrows for them that burn (for them that burn?)
         he has prepared his deadly weapons, making his arrows fiery shafts.

9:4 When my enemy shall be turned back: they shall be weakened, and perish before thy face (not a sentence)
9:7 The swords of the enemy have failed unto the end (what's all this about 'unto the end'?)
9:7 Their memory hath perished with a noise (how does memory perish with a noise?)         the very memory of them has perished
9:13 For requiring their blood, he hath remembered them: he hath not forgotten the cry of the poor
         For he who avenges blood is mindful of them; he does not forget the cry of the afflicted
9:18 The wicked shall be turned into hell   The wicked shall depart to Sheol
9:23 Whilst the wicked man is proud, the poor is set on fire (say what?)    In arrogance the wicked hotly pursue the poor
9:27 I shall not be moved from generation to generation (what's all this about being "moved?")
9:28 under his tongue are labor and sorrow    under his tongue are mischief and iniquity
9:31 In his net he will bring him down, he will crouch and fall, when he shall have power over the poor    The hapless is crushed, sinks down, and falls by his might
9:32 God hath forgotten, he hath turned away his face not to see to the end (not to see to the end?)    God has forgotten, he has hidden his face, he will never see it
9:34 for he hath said in his heart: He will not require it (require what?)   ...and say in his heart, Thou wilt not call to account   
9:36 his sin shall be sought, and shall not be found      seek out his wickedness till thou find none

10:4 For they have destroyed the things which thou hast made: but what has the just man done? (I don't know)     if the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do?

11:9 The wicked walk round about (?): according to thy highness, thou hast multiplied the children of men (why is that important here?)
         On every side the wicked prowl, as vileness is exalted among the sons of men.

12:2 How long shall I take counsels in my soul (how does one "take a counsel" in his soul?)    How long must I bear pain in my soul
12:5 They that trouble me, will rejoice when I am moved (again)

13:3 Destruction and unhappiness in their ways; and the way of peace... (is 'are' supposed to be understood? - ie are in their ways? why not inset it?)
13:4 Shall not all they know that work iniquity, who... (know what?)     Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who...
13:5 there have they trembled for fear, where there was no fear (?)

14:1 or who shall rest in thy holy hill?  (may I suggest, "or who shall rest on thy holy mountain?")

15:2 I have said to the Lord, thou art my God, for thou hast no need of my goods (makes no sense)    I say to the LORD, Thou art my Lord; I have no good apart from thee (makes good sense)
15:3 To the saints, who are in his land, he hath made wonderful all my desires in them     As for the saints in the land, they are the noble, in whom is all my delight
15:4 Their infirmities were multiplied: afterwards they made haste (to where? or to do what?).  I will not gather together their meetings (how do you gather together meetings?) for bloodofferings:
               nor will I be mindful of their names by my lips. (what?)
         Those who choose another god multiply their sorrows; their libations of blood I will not pour out or take their names upon my lips.

16:10 They have shut up their fat (I love that one)      They close their hearts to pity
16:13-14 deliver my soul from the wicked one; thy sword from the enemies of thy hand     Deliver my life from the wicked by thy sword, from men by thy hand, O Lord
16:14 O Lord, divide them from the few of the earth in their life: their belly is filled from thy hidden stores (what?)         May their belly be filled with what thou hast stored up for them

17:6 and the snares of death prevented me (prevented me from what?)     The cords of death encompassed me
17:19 They prevented me in the day of my affliction (again)    They came upon me in the day of my calamity
17:42 They cried, but there was none to save them, to the Lord (may I suggest, "They cried to the Lord, but there was none to save them?")


Any comments?

[JayneK]

I think you need to be cautious in using the Masoretic text since there are some places where it clearly has an anti-Christian bias.  RSV is my preferred modern translation, but I can't see it replacing DR.

[Tim]

Are yo aware of Haydocks Commentary ?

http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id726.html

In Ps1:1 Blessed is the man that does progress or better recess into  impiet through those three stagesy. Each is a step further ; in consilio impiorum, in via peccatorum, in cathedra pestilentiae. Haydock does a much better job of explaining it than me. There are also other commentaries on the Psalms on the net.

tim

[jovan66102]

Hi, I'm new here.  I consider myself a traditional Catholic, but do not agree that VCII was from hell or that Pope Benedict is an antipope.  If, because of that, I am not considered a true "trad" Catholic, so be it. 

Welcome and don't worry . There are many of us here who consider ourselves Trads and don't take those extreme positions.

[Adam Wayne]

I have no problem understanding the Psalms. If you pray the Divine Office they start to effect you on the level of the soul. I can't necessarily explain them, but more often than not when I consult my sources for help, I am usually on track. In other words I understand them.

You have to understand they are a type of poetry based on repetition, etc. The exact term eludes me, but the verses mirror each other and reinforce and build on each other.

Two things I use are The New Psalter of the Roman Breviary by Father Fillion and Explanations of the Psalms and Canticles in the Divine Office by St. Alphosnsus Liguori.

Just to tackle "chair of pestilence". Pestilentiae, Hebr., (the chair) of scorners, that is to say of free-thinkers who openly mock religion.

Personally, I have no use for the RSV for the Psalms or anything else.

[Tim]

Adam hit on something which is little stressed among Trads. "Infused knowledge" We were taught if you are confirmed the Holy Ghost will build on you in a special way the understanding you need. You have to do the work, like pray the Office, and that word means work, then the Holy Ghost will work on your limited understanding. Many times as I'm reciting, I'll stop and a line will give me pause and I'll think about what has been before my eyes all along.

Right now I suspect Adam was formed before Vatican II.

tim

[dcana]

Thank you, all, for your responses.

I think you need to be cautious in using the Masoretic text since there are some places where it clearly has an anti-Christian bias.  RSV is my preferred modern translation, but I can't see it replacing DR.

Hmm...this is interesting.  I've run across it a few times but don't know if there's any truth to it.  Do you have any examples/links?

Are you aware of Haydock's Commentary?

Yes, thank you, I am.  I use it sometimes.  Haydock says that the Hebrew has "scoffers."  How is "pestilence" a translation of "scoffers?"  Scoffers are people, pestilence is a disease.  Even the Septuagint has "a chair of mischievous ones," so I'm not sure where "chair of disease" came from.

There also other commentaries on the Psalms on the net.

Links?

Hi, I'm new here.  I consider myself a traditional Catholic, but do not agree that VCII was from hell or that Pope Benedict is an antipope.  If, because of that, I am not considered a true "trad" Catholic, so be it.

Welcome and don't worry . There are many of us here who consider ourselves Trads and don't take those extreme positions.

Thank you, I'm glad to hear it.  I hope you are in the majority.

Two things I use are The New Psalter of the Roman Breviary by Father Fillion and Explanations of the Psalms and Canticles in the Divine Office by St. Alphosnsus Liguori.

St. Alphonsus' book sounds interesting.  Does he go through all 150 psalms?

Adam hit on something which is little stressed among Trads. "Infused knowledge" We were taught if you are confirmed the Holy Ghost will build on you in a special way the understanding you need. You have to do the work, like pray the Office, and that word means work, then the Holy Ghost will work on your limited understanding. Many times as I'm reciting, I'll stop and a line will give me pause and I'll think about what has been before my eyes all along.

Thank you, Tim, you are absolutely right.  I used to pray more of the Office than I do now, back when I was discerning a "call" (so I thought) to the religious life - things didn't quite work out the way I had hoped.  I find that the English of the Grail translation in my LOH books is very easy to read and flows well, but when I compare it to more literal versions of Scripture, it is often way, way off.  Worse than the NAB!

[Tim]

Here's St. Augustine;

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1801.htm

Here's St.Thomas Aquinas

http://dhspriory.org/thomas/PsalmsAquinas/index.htm

There is one by S. Roberto Bellarmine it can be googled, I don't have the linkeroo.

later,
tim

[aquinas138]

Haydock says that the Hebrew has "scoffers."  How is "pestilence" a translation of "scoffers?"  Scoffers are people, pestilence is a disease.  Even the Septuagint has "a chair of mischievous ones," so I'm not sure where "chair of disease" came from.

My LXX has καὶ ἐπὶ καθέδραν λοιμῶν οὐκ ἐκάθισεν, which is where the Vulgate reading is from.  I don't have the Göttingen Septuagint at hand, which has an exhaustive list of all variants, so I'm not sure where you are getting "mischievous ones."  FWIW, the Syriac follows Hebrew and unambiguously has "scoffers."

Even without calling shenanigans on the Masoretic text (which the Peshitta helps control against), one has to realize that the textual history of the Hebrew text is extremely complicated, given that the Masoretic Text and what survives among the Dead Sea Scrolls are the only Hebrew versions that survive.  The ancient translations, though, such as the LXX and the Peshitta, which came from the Hebrew, demonstrate that there were different Hebrew versions in antiquity.  The Masoretic became canonical among Jews, and so the others fell into extinction; they are only indirectly known from translations.

[Scriptorium]

Get the Confraternity version from the 1940s to the 1960s. It was a revision of most of the DR, and is much more readable and modern in its syntax, etc. If you need a wealth of notes, the Haydock is good. In many cases you'll still need to research something to get a clear sense of what is being said.