K3vinhood
Gloppy the Molasses Monster
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Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio;
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« on: August 04, 2011, 05:00:PM » |
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I'm no pacifist, but in discussing this topic I find that many seem to think that pacifism is Christian and that killing in all situations is against Christ's commandments. Mainly pacifists cite the words of Christ: And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Matthew 19:18
Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52
I really don't know how to counter this argument. I bring up points of self-defense and protection as well as stopping evil causes that destroy the faith, but pacifists always seem to come back to this. St. Augustine and his Bellum iustum (Just War) helps if you're trying to debate whether a war is just or not, but if a person doesn't think any war is just it doesn't help at all. I guess I'm looking for some biblical evidence or writings from the fathers which allow for killing in certain situations. I have a feeling this is a lot easier to find then I think, I just have no experience with this issue.  |
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St. Kevin, St. Michael, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, St. Dymphna, and all the Saints of God, Ora Pro Nobis Domine Iesu Christe, Filius Dei, miserere me peccatorem Υπεραγίας Θεοτόκου μας σώσει The man who does not have enough of loving Christ will never have enough of fighting against those who hate Christ. -St. John Chrysostom I thank God that I live in a day when the enemy is outside the Church, and I know where he is and what he is up to. But, I foresee a day when the enemy will be both outside and inside the Church . . . and I pray now for the poor faithful who will be caught in the crossfire. -Bl. John Henry Newman  |
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wulfrano
Founder of CAM (Católicos Anti Montinianos)
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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2011, 05:17:PM » |
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I'm no pacifist, but in discussing this topic I find that many seem to think that pacifism is Christian and that killing in all situations is against Christ's commandments. Mainly pacifists cite the words of Christ: And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Matthew 19:18
Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52
I really don't know how to counter this argument. I bring up points of self-defense and protection as well as stopping evil causes that destroy the faith, but pacifists always seem to come back to this. St. Augustine and his Bellum iustum (Just War) helps if you're trying to debate whether a war is just or not, but if a person doesn't think any war is just it doesn't help at all. I guess I'm looking for some biblical evidence or writings from the fathers which allow for killing in certain situations. I have a feeling this is a lot easier to find then I think, I just have no experience with this issue. King Salomon says that there is a time for peace and that there is a time for war. When the goddamned muslims wanted to invade Europe, at Lepanto they were defeated mainly due to the prayers of Pope Saint Pius V. |
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matthew_talbot
Putting the "fun" in disfunctional
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Personality type: Sanguine/Choleric
Posts: 2,794
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2011, 06:45:PM » |
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I'm no pacifist, but in discussing this topic I find that many seem to think that pacifism is Christian and that killing in all situations is against Christ's commandments. Mainly pacifists cite the words of Christ: And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Matthew 19:18
Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52
I really don't know how to counter this argument. I bring up points of self-defense and protection as well as stopping evil causes that destroy the faith, but pacifists always seem to come back to this. St. Augustine and his Bellum iustum (Just War) helps if you're trying to debate whether a war is just or not, but if a person doesn't think any war is just it doesn't help at all. I guess I'm looking for some biblical evidence or writings from the fathers which allow for killing in certain situations. I have a feeling this is a lot easier to find then I think, I just have no experience with this issue. There is a difference between killing and murder Christ said to Peter "put up again thy sword into it's place..." In doing so, he is indicating that there is a place for the sword |
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Are you worried about Obama and his gun grabbers? FIGHT BACK!!! JOIN THE NRA TODAY!!!: http://membership.nrahq.org"God console thee and make thee a saint. To arrive at the perfection of humility four things are necessary: to despise the world, to despise no one, to despise self, to despise not being despised by others." - Quote from Servant of God Matt Talbot |
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
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† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2011, 07:03:PM » |
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I'm no pacifist, but in discussing this topic I find that many seem to think that pacifism is Christian and that killing in all situations is against Christ's commandments. Mainly pacifists cite the words of Christ: And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Matthew 19:18
Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52
I really don't know how to counter this argument. I bring up points of self-defense and protection as well as stopping evil causes that destroy the faith, but pacifists always seem to come back to this. St. Augustine and his Bellum iustum (Just War) helps if you're trying to debate whether a war is just or not, but if a person doesn't think any war is just it doesn't help at all. I guess I'm looking for some biblical evidence or writings from the fathers which allow for killing in certain situations. I have a feeling this is a lot easier to find then I think, I just have no experience with this issue. King Salomon says that there is a time for peace and that there is a time for war. When the goddamned muslims . . . Do not use that word, even if you don't actually intend what it intends by its meaning. It invokes the name of God in vain to curse human beings. |
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I n N omine P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no. 9, June 29, 1896). “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).
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wulfrano
Founder of CAM (Católicos Anti Montinianos)
Member
Gender:
Location: Tijuana, Baja California, México
Personality type: choleric and sanguine
Posts: 1,217
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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2011, 07:09:PM » |
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I'm no pacifist, but in discussing this topic I find that many seem to think that pacifism is Christian and that killing in all situations is against Christ's commandments. Mainly pacifists cite the words of Christ: And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Matthew 19:18
Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52
I really don't know how to counter this argument. I bring up points of self-defense and protection as well as stopping evil causes that destroy the faith, but pacifists always seem to come back to this. St. Augustine and his Bellum iustum (Just War) helps if you're trying to debate whether a war is just or not, but if a person doesn't think any war is just it doesn't help at all. I guess I'm looking for some biblical evidence or writings from the fathers which allow for killing in certain situations. I have a feeling this is a lot easier to find then I think, I just have no experience with this issue. King Salomon says that there is a time for peace and that there is a time for war. When the goddamned muslims . . . Do not use that word, even if you don't actually intend what it intends by its meaning. It invokes the name of God in vain to curse human beings. You call muslims human beings? They are butchering christians worldwide. |
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jovan66102
La foi Catholique d'abord! La mort à l'Islam!
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« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2011, 07:11:PM » |
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Do not use that word, even if you don't actually intend what it intends by its meaning. It invokes the name of God in vain to curse human beings.
He did not say 'God damn the Muslims'. He simply stated the truth that they are damned by God unless they leave their errors and find the true Faith. |
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Jovan-Marya Weismiller, T.O.Carm.
Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
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wulfrano
Founder of CAM (Católicos Anti Montinianos)
Member
Gender:
Location: Tijuana, Baja California, México
Personality type: choleric and sanguine
Posts: 1,217
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2011, 07:14:PM » |
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Do not use that word, even if you don't actually intend what it intends by its meaning. It invokes the name of God in vain to curse human beings.
He did not say 'God damn the Muslims'. He simply stated the truth that they are damned by God unless they leave their errors and find the true Faith. Wow, Jovan! Thanks again. I love your sensible even-mindedness interpretation of things. |
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jovan66102
La foi Catholique d'abord! La mort à l'Islam!
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Location: Temporarily, Council Bluffs, IA
Posts: 14,060
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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2011, 07:24:PM » |
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Wow, Jovan! Thanks again. I love your sensible even-mindedness interpretation of things.
I try. I think it's neat that we can be at one another's throats on subjects we disagree on and remain friends on other things. That's what real friendship is about, amigo. |
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Jovan-Marya Weismiller, T.O.Carm.
Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
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wulfrano
Founder of CAM (Católicos Anti Montinianos)
Member
Gender:
Location: Tijuana, Baja California, México
Personality type: choleric and sanguine
Posts: 1,217
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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2011, 07:32:PM » |
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Wow, Jovan! Thanks again. I love your sensible even-mindedness interpretation of things.
I try. I think it's neat that we can be at one another's throats on subjects we disagree on and remain friends on other things. That's what real friendship is about, amigo. I mean.. just read this: "He did not say 'God damn the Muslims'. He simply stated the truth that they are damned by God unless they leave their errors and find the true Faith." Dear Jovan: With that you summarize what life is about. It's about leaving errors and finding the True Faith. Wow! |
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
Member
Gender:
Personality type: Mostly melancholic
Posts: 10,836
† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2011, 08:08:PM » |
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Do not use that word, even if you don't actually intend what it intends by its meaning. It invokes the name of God in vain to curse human beings.
He did not say 'God damn the Muslims'. He simply stated the truth that they are damned by God unless they leave their errors and find the true Faith. This is a Catholic forum. You can justify it in your own mind any way you see fit, but it is a word that is formulated to deliver a curse. Pointing out what he did not say doesn't make taking the name of God in vain to consider someone preemptively damned any more right. I could say, "God damn it" in reference to my pen, and you could argue that there is no harm done because my pencil is a non-sentient object. But again, I think you miss the principle of the issue. |
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I n N omine P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no. 9, June 29, 1896). “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).
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