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Author Topic: Turning the other cheek or defending yourself during a fist fight?  (Read 1847 times)
Sabbathiel
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« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2011, 04:21:AM »

In Book XII of St. Anselm the Doctor of the Church discusses "vengeance and justified persecution" (de vindicta et de persecutione iusta), vindicta embracing lawful private violence. All traces of blood-thirstiness must be expunged and cannot exist in the just slayer and warrior. The only way violence becomes "Christian" and "agapic" is by "inner attitude." St. Anselm's literal words are: Your attitude gives its name to your deed (XIII.27). Motivated by Christian Love or Agape, and devoid of blood-thirstiness, retributive or defensive violence must be "peace-seeking" (pacificus) and it then represents an act of Christian nature and virtue.

St. Ivo of Chartres, in his Panormia, states that it is lawless and forbidden to kill with "private power" (privata potestate), even in self-defense. Augustinian influence on "private pacifism" is evidently here. St. Ivo is a logically strict "legalitarian" and deepens his argument that all "sinful" killing is, of logical necessity, contained to the "private" sphere. "Office-holders" are the only lawful practitioners of deadly force in his view, for they ideally act on rightful authority and their enactment of homicide is done on behalf of others and for the sake of the State (pro aliis vel pro civitate). Legally-administered death-punishment is "not bloodshed, but the service of the laws."

Gratian the Jurist, in the Decretum, argues that the Gospel precepts apparently negating all violence and war-service actually relate to "preparation of the heart" (praeparatio cordis) along Augustinian "inwardness-of-intention" lines. In the problem of punitive vengeance (vindicta), the precept of loving one's enemy did not equate to permission of sinning with impunity. Christian mercy did not obviate the need for redress of wrong against sinful aggressors. Gratian is a judicial formalist but follower of Natural Law theory, for he limits the practice of potentially deadly, just violence solely and exclusively to the externally legitimate imperium yet still recognizes the inherent and inalienable right to repulsion of violence by force allowed to all human beings.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 06:07:AM by Sabbathiel » Logged
Sabbathiel
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« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2011, 06:42:AM »

Placentinus the Jurist allowed private self-defense along ancient Roman lines (vim vi defendere omnes leges omniaque iura permittunt), but, in combating the "blood-feud mentality" of his times, restricted it to the same time of the initial aggression--otherwise only sinful, primitive vendetta or revenge existed, not licit self-defense (Summa Codicis).

Accursius the Italian Jurist emphasized moderation and proportionality as central to private self-defense. If the initial trespass was done weapon-less, the repulsion likewise must be weapon-less. Armed self-defense was conditionally legitimized as "moderate and fully legal" when the unjust initiator of violence introduced weaponized violence or terror (Glossa Ordinaria). The "Romanist" position of Accursius based legitimacy of self-defense in private capacity purely on "proportionate moderation", yet completely banned vendettas or indiscriminate violence even in its empowerment of very strong right of private self-defense.

Simon of Bisagnano the Canonist was of the view that private self-defense existed by both human and Divine Law, and, provided it was done in "moderation," one could even strike back a cleric (Summa).

The canon lawyer Raymond of Pennaforte stated: "It is always lawful to meet force with force" (Summa, Book II).

The main exception to "private" violence as unlawfulness in Catholicism is the "personal" or individually-mandated violence being belonging to the "exceptional ethical state" of extralegal, justifiable insurgency and, more particularly, Tyrannicide.

In his Policraticus, John of Salisbury effusively lauds private, personal executors of Higher Law against Tyrants, as Public Enemies, as unquestionably acting as agents of God, inflicting atypical yet true justice in full moral righteousness, and theologically unassailable.

John of Salisbury positively glorifies the martyric Tyrannicidal assassination of the anti-Christian Emperor Julian the Apostate by the Christian soldier-martyr Mercurius, who was acting under the dictation of the Blessed Virgin, according to the argument. Innumerable examples of Tyrannicidal Assassination are cited by John, both biblical, classical and contemporary. John asserts if a Ruler or Prince "resists and opposes the divine commandments, and wishes to make me share in his war against God, then with unrestrained voice I must answer back that God must be preferred before any man on earth", and such a God-rebelling Ruler opens up the way for Tyrannicidal dissidence and Heaven-mandated individually-authorized deadly insurgent retribution.

John argues thus: "It is not only permitted, but it is also equitable and just to slay tyrants. For he who receives the sword deserves to perish by the sword. But ‘receives’ is to be understood to pertain to he who has rashly usurped that which is not his, not he who receives what he uses from the power of God. He who receives power from God serves the laws and is the slave of justice and right. He who usurps power suppresses justice and places the laws beneath his will. Therefore, justice is deservedly armed against those who disarm the law, and the public power treats harshly those who endeavor to put aside the public hand. And, although there are many forms of high treason, none is of them is so serious as that which is executed against the body of justice itself. Tyranny is, therefore, not only a public crime, but if this can happen, it is more than public. For if all men as prosecutors may be allowed in the case of high treason, how much more are they allowed when there is oppression of laws which should themselves command emperors? Surely one should punish a public enemy, and whoever does not prosecute him transgresses against himself and against the whole body of the earthly republic ... As the image of the deity, the prince is to be loved, venerated, and respected; the tyrant, as the image of depravity, is (for the most part even) to be killed... It is just for public tyrants to be killed and the people to be liberated for obedience to God" (Policraticus).

No stronger statement of justification of individually-licensed deadly violence against usurping force could be vocalized, and no more courageous defense of the Natural and Divine Law be so protective of the continued preservation of the Lex Naturalis in the realm of the State.

Azo the Roman Jurist likewise argued a Ruler's imperium (as political power) was proportionate to his iuridictio (legitimate authority); if a Ruler or King transgressed the boundaries of lawfulness and degenerated into a "Rex Tyrannus", there existed an individually and personally-based moral right and duty of Tyrannicide.

St. Thomas Aquinas too, even implicitly allowed, on morally pragmatic grounds, for personally-based insurgency in circumstances of harsh Tyranny:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3042.htm

A tyrannical government is not just, because it is directed, not to the common good, but to the private good of the ruler, as the Philosopher states (Polit. iii, 5; Ethic. viii, 10). Consequently there is no sedition in disturbing a government of this kind, unless indeed the tyrant's rule be disturbed so inordinately, that his subjects suffer greater harm from the consequent disturbance than from the tyrant's government. Indeed it is the tyrant rather that is guilty of sedition, since he encourages discord and sedition among his subjects, that he may lord over them more securely; for this is tyranny, being conducive to the private good of the ruler, and to the injury of the multitude.

In another work, Scripta Super Libros Sententiarum, St. Thomas even goes even further and unabashedly ethically justifies full-blown extralegal, extra-judicial, informal, tacitly individually-authorized Tyrannicide:

[When no recourse to a morally-upright superior is juridically existent to the people], "He who delivers his country by slaying a tyrant is to be praised and rewarded."
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Scriptorium
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« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2011, 07:43:AM »

I think the main concern of St Thomas is that any willful killing is taking place in the public sphere under due authority. (Supposedly the only willful killing should be the death penalty. Even military combat is supposed to be unwilled.) I think he sees not only a common good, but also the authority of God. The Church teaches that the lawful public authorities, when acting in accordance with justice, have the authority of God. As for personal acts the most we can say is that we have the sanction of God, but not his authority. So in the view of St Thomas such acts, if common enough, ultimately degrade the common good and order in society. You can see a parallel of sorts in the authority of God over Scripture and what-not removed from a lawful authority vested with it, to the individual. And we see the destruction of the "common good". I think the vast majority of people do not intend to kill per se in the heat of personal hand-to-hand combat in the common public life. The question I faced is whether it was moral to train to kill for personal self-defense. I concluded no based on a few working assumptions. All sciences tend toward perfection, so the science of self-defense would include the ability to kill someone in order to be perfect (the ultimate dissolution of a threat). I would train to employ such an ability in the most extreme circumstances in which it was virtually impossible to resort to less lethal techniques. As one of my masters says, we train you to hit a home run, but we also train you pull back and bunt. One never has the intention to kill anyone, even if this is a very realistic possibility of a conflict. If someone is breaking into my house, it is just sheer stupidity to employ a weapon of lower level than a gun. In fact, if you have it and can use it, I would say it is your duty to use it (wisely). And taking in all factors, it is also highly unrealistic to try to wound the person but not kill them with a gun in a condition of, say, a break-in. I can write much more, but in general I think that as long as you are training to live in 99% pacificity, and employ your defensive weapons in 99% lethality (if need be), you are going to be okay. The one percent keeps you from being a complete pacifist, which I think only some are heroically called to do, and a murderer, someone who positively wills to the death of another, and does it. Don't pick fights. Don't be macho or prideful. Don't go to places where fights are prone to happen (most bars, for one). Stay clean. In a conflict you should at every moment wish it to be a peaceful thing, but the aggressor will not allow you to be peaceful. You have to train to be lethal and willing to employ those weapons, because if you don't you won't when the you-know-what hits the fans, but you have to be imbued with a peaceful spirit. In the end I don't think it is complex. I am sure we all know people who are looking for a fight, or have something to prove, and others who are gentle, peaceful people who will absolutely tear your head off if you force them to.
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And whosoever diggeth a pit, Lord,
Shall fall in it, shall fall in it.
Whosoever diggeth a pit shall bury in it,
Shall bury in it.

If you are the big tree,
We are the small axe
Sharpened to cut you down,
Ready to cut you down.

- Bob Marley, Small Axe
kayla_veronica
Mrs. Mith
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« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2011, 09:29:AM »

If they hit you once, let it go. However if they are trying to “beat you up” you should defend yourself.
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May the most holy, most sacred, most adorable,
most incomprehensible and ineffable Name of God
be forever praised, blessed, loved, adored
and glorified in Heaven, on earth,
and under the earth,
by all the creatures of God,
and by the Sacred Heart of Our Lord Jesus Christ,
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Amen.
Sabbathiel
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 140



« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2011, 09:43:PM »

I think the main concern of St Thomas is that any willful killing is taking place in the public sphere under due authority. (Supposedly the only willful killing should be the death penalty. Even military combat is supposed to be unwilled.) I think he sees not only a common good, but also the authority of God. The Church teaches that the lawful public authorities, when acting in accordance with justice, have the authority of God. As for personal acts the most we can say is that we have the sanction of God, but not his authority. So in the view of St Thomas such acts, if common enough, ultimately degrade the common good and order in society. You can see a parallel of sorts in the authority of God over Scripture and what-not removed from a lawful authority vested with it, to the individual. And we see the destruction of the "common good". I think the vast majority of people do not intend to kill per se in the heat of personal hand-to-hand combat in the common public life. The question I faced is whether it was moral to train to kill for personal self-defense. I concluded no based on a few working assumptions. All sciences tend toward perfection, so the science of self-defense would include the ability to kill someone in order to be perfect (the ultimate dissolution of a threat). I would train to employ such an ability in the most extreme circumstances in which it was virtually impossible to resort to less lethal techniques. As one of my masters says, we train you to hit a home run, but we also train you pull back and bunt. One never has the intention to kill anyone, even if this is a very realistic possibility of a conflict. If someone is breaking into my house, it is just sheer stupidity to employ a weapon of lower level than a gun. In fact, if you have it and can use it, I would say it is your duty to use it (wisely). And taking in all factors, it is also highly unrealistic to try to wound the person but not kill them with a gun in a condition of, say, a break-in. I can write much more, but in general I think that as long as you are training to live in 99% pacificity, and employ your defensive weapons in 99% lethality (if need be), you are going to be okay. The one percent keeps you from being a complete pacifist, which I think only some are heroically called to do, and a murderer, someone who positively wills to the death of another, and does it. Don't pick fights. Don't be macho or prideful. Don't go to places where fights are prone to happen (most bars, for one). Stay clean. In a conflict you should at every moment wish it to be a peaceful thing, but the aggressor will not allow you to be peaceful. You have to train to be lethal and willing to employ those weapons, because if you don't you won't when the you-know-what hits the fans, but you have to be imbued with a peaceful spirit. In the end I don't think it is complex. I am sure we all know people who are looking for a fight, or have something to prove, and others who are gentle, peaceful people who will absolutely tear your head off if you force them to.

Brother, I can tell you are absolutely on the right track both inwardly and externally. Your mindset resmbles that of a true pacificus miles Christi. God bless you in whatever struggles you face and in your endeavors.
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