Validity of JP2's beatification

[Old Salt]

Beatifications have never been infallible in the Churches history.
But if the Church officially declares one Blessed, then we assent to that declaration until and if She declares otherwise.

[Old Salt]

Quote from: Vetus Ordo
If "Blessed" John Paul II can do it with with half-naked women, so can ayone else.


I don't like JP2 anymore than you probably do, but he's a beatus nonetheless. It lacks prudence to question the validity of his beatification, which was proclaimed by the pope according to the traditional formula.


Of course.

*buries head in the sand*

So you decide by what you consider appropriate standards what the Church should do.
Hmmmm....sounds like a certain Augustinian priest in Europe in the 16th cent.

[OldMan]

Perhaps John Paul II is that missing link in the hermeneutic of continuity...

[Resurrexi]

That's like saying that everything the President does is fine and legal, because he holds the office.

The president, unlike the pope, is not a legislator.

Every law Congress passes is indeed legal, unless the Supreme Court rules otherwise. In the Church, there is no Supreme Court. Unless you're a Conciliarist heretic, no law made by the pope can be overturned by any authority except the pope.

[Resurrexi]

Just because you're the Pope doesn't mean you can't do bad things, unholy things, sinful things.

Of course the pope can do bad, unholy, sinful things.

The 'Holy Ghost' card isn't a free pass for anything goes. The charism of infallibility is quite narrow.

Certainly it is. Beatifications are not infallible, but they are doubtless authoritative.

I don's approve of every beatification, but that doesn't give me the right to say that a person whom the pope has declared a beatus is not one.

As far as JPII is concerned, he's either 'in' which means the Catholic rulebook has been thrown out, or beatifications are fallible and he's really 'out'.

What rulebook? As far as I can tell, the Congregation for the Causes of Saints has followed ecclesiastical legislation on beatification. If it has not, please point out how it has not.

[Vetus Ordo]

So you decide by what you consider appropriate standards what the Church should do.
Hmmmm....sounds like a certain Augustinian priest in Europe in the 16th cent.

Bury your hand in the sand, you seem to enjoy it.

[Raskolnikov]

4) Certainly, there's no possible excuse to justify the beatification of people like John Paul II.

Obviously the beatification was imprudent, as JPII made decisions which were objectively bad and possibly destructive and scandalous. However, it is quite possible that he might nonetheless be in Heaven. Only God can judge the human heart. From what we know he was a man of sanctity piety. None of us know the condition of his heart and conscience at the time of his death. In short: it is definately possible that JPII could be a saint in Heaven.

So, do you think that the problem with his beatification is that it glorifies his bad administrative, pastoral and theological decisions, when really they ought to be recognised as mistakes? That it 'sends the wrong message'? Or do you actually think that JPII is in Hell (i.e., that his salvation is a categorical impossibility) and that therefore the beatification itself is erroneous?

I don't intend to be argumentative, btw, I'm just trying to understand your views on the matter.

[charlesh]

So you decide by what you consider appropriate standards what the Church should do.
Hmmmm....sounds like a certain Augustinian priest in Europe in the 16th cent.

Ridiculous. John Paul II promoted a Protestant Mass, called Luther a holy man, promoted every false religion in the world, committed innumerable public acts of apostasy--with everybody from voodoo snake-worshippers to hindus--, publicly taught the heresy that God never revoked the ancient covenant with the Jews, constantly insinuated the heresy of universal salvation, promoted countless heretics (like Walter Kaspar) to bishoprics and cardinalates while excommunicating and abandoning faithful, orthodox, persecuted priests, and on and on ad nauseam.

If anybody is like Luther, it's JP2 himself, who did more than Luther ever dreamed of to destroy Holy Mother Church.

Either John Paul II is a saint or the Catholic Church of the last 2,000 years is a false religion. You can't have both, which is why it's good that beatifications are not infallible. If Benedict ever canonizes JP2 a saint, it will be iron-clad proof, not that JP2 is a saint, but rather that Benedict does not have the protection of the Holy Ghost from error.

[jovan66102]

Either John Paul II is a saint or the Catholic Church of the last 2,000 years is a false religion. You can't have both, which is why it's good that beatifications are not infallible. If Benedict ever canonizes JP2 a saint, it will be iron-clad proof, not that JP2 is a saint, but rather that Benedict does not have the protection of the Holy Ghost from error.

So you have the charism of reading souls and know the state of John Paul's when he died, eh? I think that beatifying John Paul was one of the greatest biggest mistakes of Pope Benedict's reign, but since I don't possess your unique talent I can't say that he's not in heaven. Were he canonised, I think it would be an even greater mistake, since the man should never be held up as a role model, but again, I don't possess your special God given talent, so I'll just go along with Christ's One, Holy, Roman, Catholic and Apostolic Church while still thinking it was a mistake. But, hey, that's just me trying to be as obedient a Catholic as I can be, unlike people with special gifts of the Holy Ghost, etc.

[charlesh]

You must like John Paul II very much, because on that reasoning, you would agree with him that "we may hope that hell is empty." On the contrary, it does not take a special charism and we do not have to read souls. We go by what is manifest, what is done publicly and openly. John Paul's pontificate was one long sin against the first commandment. You may as well begin burying every witch-doctor in hallowed ground, on the basis that we cannot read their souls and they JUST MAY have converted in their dying moments.