Swimsuits

[wallflower]

Rather, what it boils down to is that most men are tempted by women at the beach and, off the beach, who wear revealing clothing and men have to exercise custody of the eyes and mind more, and women need to dress more modestly.

Well, I don't see why we can't trust godly women to monitor the modesty of their own clothing, on or off the beach. Or am I missing the point here?

Once again, the points I make get lost in the shuffle.

It's a very nice sentiment but yes you are missing the point. We aren't born with infused knowledge of modesty (or anything for that matter). It has to be discussed and figured out and like everything else being "Catholic" doesn't change that. In fact being "Catholic" makes us bound to consider the subject in more detail, as we consider all subjects in more detail. And even as Catholics we are still capable of falling short, no? Of letting our personal desires get in the way? It does not give anyone infallibility or immediate sancitity. We still have difficulties coming to grips with moral issues. So as nice as your point is, it's a bit of a cop-out. Maybe it could apply to a few saints but even they would object to doing anything out of trust in their own godliness.

[radio silence]

I think part of why this conversation gets so confusing is that some people here are talking about honest trads who are trying to do right by God and assuming that all the people involved in this imaginary beach scenario are also good Christians who are trying to please God.

The other half of the people are talking about an imaginary beach scenario where some of the people are God-fearing Christians but most of the rest of the people are lukewarm or atheists or whatever.

So obviously Iolanthe is correct when she says that people who find the beach to be an occasion of sin should avoid it.  But the other question is, what is the moral obligation for those of us who do not find it to be an occasion of sin for ourselves?  What is our moral obligation on behalf of all those other people on the beach who don't spend much time worrying about whether they are sinning, who may very well be using us as an opportunity to gawk and entertain impure thoughts? Or even the nominally Christian dad who is there with his family and doesn't really want to be distracted by the ladies but is nonetheless.

What is my duty when it comes to my behavior in front of all these other people?  What kind of example should I set?

Another thing that is confusing about this conversation is that all through it I haven't been sure if people are aiming to discuss what is excusable or acceptable behavior (like for Pete's sake, she's not the Harlot of Babylon just because she wore a one-piece on the beach! (I agree)) or if we are aiming to discuss what is ideal behavior.  Of course if we are discussing ideal behavior the standards have to be very very high. We have to be Christlike or Mary-like.

I can say for certain that I am hardly ever either of those.

[Iolanthe]

So obviously Iolanthe is correct when she says that people who find the beach to be an occasion of sin should avoid it.  But the other question is, what is the moral obligation for those of us who do not find it to be an occasion of sin for ourselves?  What is our moral obligation on behalf of all those other people on the beach who don't spend much time worrying about whether they are sinning, who may very well be using us as an opportunity to gawk and entertain impure thoughts? Or even the nominally Christian dad who is there with his family and doesn't really want to be distracted by the ladies but is nonetheless.

I have two things to say in response to this. One is that we're talking about bathing suits that cover more than a bikini and are not designed to be seductive. The gawkers are going to be gawking at other women, not the traddy in the tankini. The other thing is that the exception who DO still gawk at women who are decently covered and not trying to attract that kind of attention, they will gawk at anyone wearing anything. If a guy is leering at you in a tankini, what's going to stop him from leering at you in shorts or in a cute dress? Nothing. If you make a reasonable effort to be modest and have enough respect for yourself not to go out of your way to get attention from men based on your appearance, you have nothing to worry about.

Now please don't start the conversation over by saying, "But what counts as reasonable? Why can't we apply this same logic to being naked" etc.

Personally, I have a lot more respect for men who say things like this:

Thank you. I get where the other men are coming from, but come on---if women (godly or otherwise) want to look nice then let them. I'm sure they make sacrifices in other ways, so this is a matter where men can take it upon themselves to combat temptation. Hell yeah it's hard, but its worth it in order to gain redemption.

than I do for the comments made by (mostly married) men who can't seem to act any better than horny teenagers. It certainly shows a lack of self-control.

[ErinIsNice]

Wait a sec, did HR just compare women wearing conservative swimsuits to strippers?  Seriously? 

[radio silence]

Iolanthe, I agree with you that it's awesome to hear men say things like what vakarian said.  As a woman it's really crummy to be objectified and rated and used, based on our outer shell. And I also feel anger at men and pain because of it. And if I look at myself and other women as the passive recipients of this sort of male aggression, then everything you say makes perfect sense.

However when I flip it around and accept that there's a possibility a man could actually be a victim as well, my attitude changes.
I have a teenage nephew who is starting to become very aware of women's bodies.  The family started noticing that when they watched certain tv shows that weren't even particularly suggestive or racy, he would get uncomfortable and silently leave the room.  He didn't want to be affected but he was and it was a painful struggle for him. And I started thinking about how little power he had in this, how in a way, just walking down the street he would be assaulted with very sexy images everywhere whether he was ready to deal with them or not. It's a kind of rape of the mind and of the senses, because it's forced upon one unwillingly.

I remember being a teenage girl and being scared and appalled about all the sexuality in the world that was thrust upon me that felt very threatening and intimidating to me.  I think that boys can be victims of this just as much as girls can, and like it or not we girls and women have power.

[wallflower]

radio silence we are trying to figure out the ideal for Catholics in any swimming setting, with Catholics and with others who as you rightly pointed out will happily take advantage of an occasion of sin. As Iolanthe said they may sin even if you are properly dressed, but of course that doesn't excuse us from striving to be properly dressed in the first place. In one situation you have no culpability for what they do, in the other you may very well have shared culpability. It all depends on what the objective limits of modesty require and since the Church has not declared modesty dogma, we argue about it. When are you culpable, when are you not? We don't have dogma, but we have common sense and the writings of many saints that can help guide us.

(Thinking anyone is accusing others of being the whore of Babylon for wearing a one piece is an exagerration of a point. Not on your end but on the part of anyone who wants to make the objections seem worse than they are, then exagerration of the opposition's point is a diversion tactic. Just ignore those.  )

ETA This was for your previous post.

[Iolanthe]

Radio Silence,

That's a bit too much drama for me. There's sin in the world. All kinds of sin. You still have to live your life, and the people who objectify you the most are the ones who will tell you're an occasion of lust even when you're making a conscious effort to be modest. Disregard those people and listen to the ones who are doing the right thing.

[Someone1776]

Iolanthe, I agree with you that it's awesome to hear men say things like what vakarian said.  As a woman it's really crummy to be objectified and rated and used, based on our outer shell. And I also feel anger at men and pain because of it. And if I look at myself and other women as the passive recipients of this sort of male aggression, then everything you say makes perfect sense.

However when I flip it around and accept that there's a possibility a man could actually be a victim as well, my attitude changes.
I have a teenage nephew who is starting to become very aware of women's bodies.  The family started noticing that when they watched certain tv shows that weren't even particularly suggestive or racy, he would get uncomfortable and silently leave the room.  He didn't want to be affected but he was and it was a painful struggle for him. And I started thinking about how little power he had in this, how in a way, just walking down the street he would be assaulted with very sexy images everywhere whether he was ready to deal with them or not. It's a kind of rape of the mind and of the senses, because it's forced upon one unwillingly.

I remember being a teenage girl and being scared and appalled about all the sexuality in the world that was thrust upon me that felt very threatening and intimidating to me.  I think that boys can be victims of this just as much as girls can, and like it or not we girls and women have power.

Being a teenager boy is awkward, but if your nephew can't handle mild " tv shows that weren't even particularly suggestive or racy" he's going to be in a heap of trouble.  The solution here isn't to try to protect his eyes, but to have someone (preferably his father) talk to him about how to properly handle these images and the hormones coursing through his body (don't all teenage boys get this awkward but informative talk?).  Otherwise he will grow up to post really weird things on traditional Catholic forums...

[Louis_Martin]

Radio Silence,

That's a bit too much drama for me. There's sin in the world. All kinds of sin. You still have to live your life, and the people who objectify you the most are the ones who will tell you're an occasion of lust even when you're making a conscious effort to be modest. Disregard those people and listen to the ones who are doing the right thing.

That was post 666!

Thread is spooky.

Anyways I don't get the big deal of this thread. There are people who are saying "you can wear a bit less to swim" and people who are saying "you should be modest when swimming" and somehow it became each one declaring the other was saying "go naked" or "wrap yourself in a burqa". I think everyone blew the other side out of proportion, and they're closer than they think to each other.

Then again I haven't read this thread in a while. Maybe we're talking about how kosher hot dogs are a zionist conspiracy to change the face of baseball.

Full disclosure: I swim shirtless, the sun reflecting off my wet and glistening muscles that ripple across my body. But my face scares children and puppies so I guess it evens out.

[Habitual_Ritual]

Wait a sec, did HR just compare women wearing conservative swimsuits to strippers?  Seriously? 

No...let me be clear.There is a trend running round about these parts that the issue of modesty lies with the person suffering from temptation and that the cause, ie the immodesty dressed man or woman has no moral culpability in the matter. The strip club comparison is,I agree,somewhat indefensible as the women there are intending to titillate but then many women at the beach can and likely are aware of the impact of their forms and dress and may indeed bask in the attention as well as the suns rays.

And we have the issue of "practical" Tankini vs an immodest Bikini. Frankly,and I've been looking,the difference is one of minor degrees, a bit more flesh exposed in one vs the other but a Tankini does nothing to hide form and the visual lines of the fabric's cut and it's placement on the body  still tend to draw ones eyes to certain locations.Imagination (not much required) does the rest.

Here is a "sport" Tankini not very well fitted on a mannequin.Doesn't take much to picture the effect this would illicit on an well formed figure,even with longer,short-like legs:



The ladies round here need to drop the victim status and laying the blame firmly at one doorstep over another. This is not an attack on female kind,but rather a simple discussion on what was once an obvious fact of life.