Invinsible ignorance before VII

[little_flower10]

I can agree with that...

[Doce Me]

I agree.. the sedevacantist person I'm speaking to first quoted Pope Benedict who apparently said that non Christians can go to Heaven, then I asked someone about that and they gave me a document signed by Card. Ratzinger saying that other religions are not paths to salvation, only the Church is, but there is invinsible ignorance... so I'm trying to make sure that the Church today teaches the same thing as Pope Pius IX. Oh but then this person was saying that though many people think Pope Pius IX taught invinsible ignorance, he didn't really. I don't know what he means by that.

 

I don't know because I'm not a part of the conversationa nd tbh I'm not particularly learned in papal encyclicals and the such.  But I was asking the same questions about invincible ignorance not to long back and still have some stuff bookmarked, so that's why I replied.

I'm not sure what you mean by "taught invincible ignorance."  here is the relevant text from teh encyclical:

Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

The key here is that all the pope is doing is appealing to God's mercy. He's not making some sort of shocking statement that is going to shake the foundation of the world- knowing the nature of sin (that it involves free will) and of God (He is merciful) he says that God does not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

Now ask yourself, do you know anyone who isn't guilty of deliberate sin?  I sure don't.  The Pope here is talking about a minority so small it can't be measured.  But to be sure that in the case of someone who TRULY was ignorant and live a "good life" then God, in His mercy, will not have them suffer forever.

I think the Pope is talking about  mortal and/or original sin.  With venial sin alone your soul is still in the state of grace, alive with God's life, pleasing to God. God in His mercy put you in that state and will not damn you - rather He sends you to purgatory if your soul is stained.  Still it is extremely difficult for a man to stay in the state of grace especially if he is not baptized or does not have the Sacraments of the Church.  So as you say the number of such men may be miniscule.  But why not leave it to God to determine what that number may be.  He alone understands His justice and His mercy. But it is safest for us to err on the low side.

[Mithrandylan]

I agree.. the sedevacantist person I'm speaking to first quoted Pope Benedict who apparently said that non Christians can go to Heaven, then I asked someone about that and they gave me a document signed by Card. Ratzinger saying that other religions are not paths to salvation, only the Church is, but there is invinsible ignorance... so I'm trying to make sure that the Church today teaches the same thing as Pope Pius IX. Oh but then this person was saying that though many people think Pope Pius IX taught invinsible ignorance, he didn't really. I don't know what he means by that.

 

I don't know because I'm not a part of the conversationa nd tbh I'm not particularly learned in papal encyclicals and the such.  But I was asking the same questions about invincible ignorance not to long back and still have some stuff bookmarked, so that's why I replied.

I'm not sure what you mean by "taught invincible ignorance."  here is the relevant text from teh encyclical:

Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

The key here is that all the pope is doing is appealing to God's mercy. He's not making some sort of shocking statement that is going to shake the foundation of the world- knowing the nature of sin (that it involves free will) and of God (He is merciful) he says that God does not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

Now ask yourself, do you know anyone who isn't guilty of deliberate sin?  I sure don't.  The Pope here is talking about a minority so small it can't be measured.  But to be sure that in the case of someone who TRULY was ignorant and live a "good life" then God, in His mercy, will not have them suffer forever.

I think the Pope is talking about  mortal and/or original sin.  With venial sin alone your soul is still in the state of grace, alive with God's life, pleasing to God. God in His mercy put you in that state and will not damn you - rather He sends you to purgatory if your soul is stained.  Still it is extremely difficult for a man to stay in the state of grace especially if he is not baptized or does not have the Sacraments of the Church.  So as you say the number of such men may be miniscule.  But why not leave it to God to determine what that number may be.  He alone understands His justice and His mercy. But it is safest for us to err on the low side.

Anyone who knows what invincible ignorance is cannot claim it.

[Mithrandylan]

How can we understand Pope Benedict praying with non Christians? I'm being told this makes him a manifest heretic so he's outside the Church and not Pope. Does it though?

I don't know. 

[INPEFESS]

Has the Church taught invinsible ignorance prior to VII? Please let me know and share any quotes....... I'm really confused about this. Did the Church ever say that non Catholics can be saved if they are invinsibly ignorant?? or is this only a modern teaching?

thanks!

Yes, the Church taught invinsible ignorance prior to VII.

No, the Church never taught that non-Catholics can be saved if they are invinsibly ignorant because the teaching of the Church is that if they are invinsibly ignorant they are not considered "non-Catholics". In fact, the Church considers those who have been baptized to be attached to the Church until such a time as they, after reaching the age of reason, pertinaciously deny or doubt any article of divine faith. This is why children baptized by Protestants immediately go to Heaven if they die before reaching the age of reason. 

Let me explain: Only Catholics can go to heaven, either by being visible members of the Catholic Church or by being invisibly attached to Her.

As I'm sure you know, the body of the Church is composed of three elements: Church Suffering, Church Militant, and Church Triumphant.

The Church Suffering are all those souls who are being purified in purgatory; the Church Militant are all those who are fighting on earth right now to get to Heaven; and the Church Triumphant are those who are already in Heaven.

Because (1) those in Heaven are part of the Church, (2) there is no salvation outside of the Church, and (3) the Catholic Church and the Church of Christ are one and the same thing, it follows that it is necessary to first be part of the Catholic Church before death in order to be saved (Pope Eugene IV, de fide*).

One can be a part of the Catholic Church in two ways: (1) visible membership in the Church and (2) invisible attachment to the Church.

According to the Church, in order to be considered a visible member of the Church, one must have been baptized with water, must profess the True Faith, and must not be so unfortunate as to have been cut off from the Church via schism or heresy.

In order to be invisibly attached to the Church, one must have at least been baptized (with water, according to "relative necessity of means") and (upon reaching the age of reason) have explicit faith in (at least) the Trinity and the Incarnation.

(An example of a soul invisibly attached to the Church could be an infant who has been baptized by Protestants. The infant can neither profess the True Faith nor separate itself from the Church via schism or heresy, so such an infant is invisibly attached to the Church until such a time as he/she refuses to profess the True Faith or pertinaciously doubts or denies an article of faith.)

So, one can be nominally Protestant but actually Catholic, provided that the nominal Protestant does not pertinaciously deny or doubt any teachings of the Church.


* Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, 1438-1445:
"[The Holy Catholic Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart 'into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

[INPEFESS]

Also, your statement needs a little revision.  Non-Catholics can't be saved in any capacity at all.  Those who are invincibly ignorant and saved by God are Catholic by extension.  They're "invisible" members of the Church, implicit members where we are visible and explicit members. 

Yes. Very good.

"[The Holy Catholic Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart 'into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

[INPEFESS]

How can we understand Pope Benedict praying with non Christians?

Well, his actions would indicate that he doesn't actually believe the teachings of the Church, but, based upon his doctrinal equivocation, I can't say what he actually believes. Nevertheless, contrary to popular opinion (and all subjective analyses aside), based upon his own beliefs and his own execution of those beliefs, the operation of the Church's law itself calls his office into question and places doubt on his legitimacy (cf. Canons 2314, 1325.2, 2220, 188.4, 192, 2197.1 [OC]).

I'm being told this makes him a manifest heretic so he's outside the Church and not Pope. Does it though?

As it concerns his internal forum, we can't possibly judge his personal culpability, for, in this sense, "the First See is judged by no-one."

However, the Church teaches that the censure of automatic excommunication applies to the external forum of the soul (cf. Canons 2220, 2229.3 [OC]) by operation of the law itself (cf. Canon 192 [OC]), which effects tacit resignation from ecclesiastical offices (cf. Canon 188.4 [OC]). Hence, it is a valid, Church-approved theological opinion that public deviation from the Faith by the pope would, in fact, separate him from the Church (cf. Canons 2314, 1325.2, 2197.1). This is the unanimous teaching of the Church fathers and theologians who taught on this subject (de Sales, Cajetan, Bellarmine, Suarez, Aquinas, Vidal, Liguori, et al.). As such, there is no censure against one who would believe this to presently be the case (Wernz-Vidal, Szal, de Lugo).

But, considering that it is a valid theological opinion and not an article of faith, one could reject this opinion (weighty as it may be) and still be a Catholic.

[INPEFESS]

double post

[little_flower10]

I think the Pope is talking about  mortal and/or original sin.  With venial sin alone your soul is still in the state of grace, alive with God's life, pleasing to God. God in His mercy put you in that state and will not damn you - rather He sends you to purgatory if your soul is stained.  Still it is extremely difficult for a man to stay in the state of grace especially if he is not baptized or does not have the Sacraments of the Church.  So as you say the number of such men may be miniscule.  But why not leave it to God to determine what that number may be.  He alone understands His justice and His mercy. But it is safest for us to err on the low side.

if a person did commit a mortal sin, but is repentant and asks God for forgiveness, but doesn't know they need to go to Confession, would God forgive them? I remember reading a story about St Padre Pio and how he saw a Protestant go to Purgatory... isn't that like invinsible ignorance? (provided it's really that and it's not like they hate confession. There's also the example of the Catholic who dies on the way to Confession... this shows God is not bound by the Sacraments?)

[little_flower10]

"[The Holy Catholic Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart 'into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

I think when it says "heretics" and "schismatics" it's referring to those who were Catholic first. Not the person who was born in Greece and never heard of the Catholic Church except as something "Western" and lived their whole life as Eastern Orthodox. In the last line, it says "remained"....

is my interpretation correct?