Invinsible ignorance before VII

[little_flower10]

Has the Church taught invinsible ignorance prior to VII? Please let me know and share any quotes....... I'm really confused about this. Did the Church ever say that non Catholics can be saved if they are invinsibly ignorant?? or is this only a modern teaching?

thanks!

[Mithrandylan]

Pius IX in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, abotu 100 years before v2

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanto.htm

Keep in mind that ignorance is not saving per se, it is by God's mercy that those who were truly ignorant *can* be saved.

[Mithrandylan]

Also, your statement needs a little revision.  Non-Catholics can't be saved in any capacity at all.  Those who are invincibly ignorant and saved by God are Catholic by extension.  They're "invisible" members of the Church, implicit members where we are visible and explicit members. 

Because invincible ignorance is impossible to be judged by us (yet we still try to judge it) we run into problems.  Modernists want to basically set a "well, they were good enough" standard wherein as long as someone believed they were saved.  Basically Lutheranism.  The application of invincible ignorance and Baptism of desire has been used liberally and been played with fast and loose.  These two things absolutely exist, but not in the way where many would contend- they are extraordinary means of salvation.  In other words, they don't happen often, they don't happen at our will, they don't happen by our design and they aren't an "option." 

[little_flower10]

Also, your statement needs a little revision.  Non-Catholics can't be saved in any capacity at all.  Those who are invincibly ignorant and saved by God are Catholic by extension.  They're "invisible" members of the Church, implicit members where we are visible and explicit members. 

I understand that it's just that I'm talking to a sedevacantist who is saying that the Church has never taught that anyone could be an "invisible" member of the Church, until VII. I'm trying to find out if this is the case.

thanks for the reply!

[Mithrandylan]

Also, your statement needs a little revision.  Non-Catholics can't be saved in any capacity at all.  Those who are invincibly ignorant and saved by God are Catholic by extension.  They're "invisible" members of the Church, implicit members where we are visible and explicit members. 

I understand that it's just that I'm talking to a sedevacantist who is saying that the Church has never taught that anyone could be an "invisible" member of the Church, until VII. I'm trying to find out if this is the case.

thanks for the reply!

Then this person believes that the early catechumens who were thrown to the lions before being baptized are in hell, and that the biblical account of St Dismas is wrong

"And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom.  And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

[little_flower10]

that makes sense...

[Mithrandylan]

that makes sense...

That being said, there's absolutely abuses so far as people who should know better preaching BOD and ii as some all-inclusive "let's go to heaven together" sort of thing.  Almost as a substitute to prayer and living a virtuous life.  But to go as far as to say that there's no such thing as invincible ignorance or baptism of desire isn't correct either.

[little_flower10]

I agree.. the sedevacantist person I'm speaking to first quoted Pope Benedict who apparently said that non Christians can go to Heaven, then I asked someone about that and they gave me a document signed by Card. Ratzinger saying that other religions are not paths to salvation, only the Church is, but there is invinsible ignorance... so I'm trying to make sure that the Church today teaches the same thing as Pope Pius IX. Oh but then this person was saying that though many people think Pope Pius IX taught invinsible ignorance, he didn't really. I don't know what he means by that.

 

[little_flower10]

How can we understand Pope Benedict praying with non Christians? I'm being told this makes him a manifest heretic so he's outside the Church and not Pope. Does it though?

[Mithrandylan]

I agree.. the sedevacantist person I'm speaking to first quoted Pope Benedict who apparently said that non Christians can go to Heaven, then I asked someone about that and they gave me a document signed by Card. Ratzinger saying that other religions are not paths to salvation, only the Church is, but there is invinsible ignorance... so I'm trying to make sure that the Church today teaches the same thing as Pope Pius IX. Oh but then this person was saying that though many people think Pope Pius IX taught invinsible ignorance, he didn't really. I don't know what he means by that.

 

I don't know because I'm not a part of the conversationa nd tbh I'm not particularly learned in papal encyclicals and the such.  But I was asking the same questions about invincible ignorance not to long back and still have some stuff bookmarked, so that's why I replied.

I'm not sure what you mean by "taught invincible ignorance."  here is the relevant text from teh encyclical:

Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

The key here is that all the pope is doing is appealing to God's mercy. He's not making some sort of shocking statement that is going to shake the foundation of the world- knowing the nature of sin (that it involves free will) and of God (He is merciful) he says that God does not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

Now ask yourself, do you know anyone who isn't guilty of deliberate sin?  I sure don't.  The Pope here is talking about a minority so small it can't be measured.  But to be sure that in the case of someone who TRULY was ignorant and live a "good life" then God, in His mercy, will not have them suffer forever.