little_flower10
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« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2011, 06:27:PM » |
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Well I'm wondering about Pope Benedict, if what you say is true and he has committed heresy (if you are indeed suggesting that, and if I didn't misunderstand your argument) - then aren't the sedevacantists correct? that's why I asked, how can we then go to Mass, because every Catholic church believes that Pope Benedict is the Pope. If however he did not commit heresy, then this argument is not applicable. To be honest, I am confused about all this.
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Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.
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Old Salt
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Sancta Dei Genitrix Ora Pro Nobis.
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« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2011, 09:34:PM » |
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Well I'm wondering about Pope Benedict, if what you say is true and he has committed heresy (if you are indeed suggesting that, and if I didn't misunderstand your argument) - then aren't the sedevacantists correct? that's why I asked, how can we then go to Mass, because every Catholic church believes that Pope Benedict is the Pope. If however he did not commit heresy, then this argument is not applicable. To be honest, I am confused about all this.
No, an Pope who is a heretic before or after he is Supreme Pontiff has to be declared officially by the Church that he is a formal heretic. |
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Don't forget to pray for the dead.
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little_flower10
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« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2011, 01:16:PM » |
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Well I'm wondering about Pope Benedict, if what you say is true and he has committed heresy (if you are indeed suggesting that, and if I didn't misunderstand your argument) - then aren't the sedevacantists correct? that's why I asked, how can we then go to Mass, because every Catholic church believes that Pope Benedict is the Pope. If however he did not commit heresy, then this argument is not applicable. To be honest, I am confused about all this.
No, an Pope who is a heretic before or after he is Supreme Pontiff has to be declared officially by the Church that he is a formal heretic. If the Pope is a heretic, then where is the Church? :( I don't think I understand sedevacantism.. |
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Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.
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Doce Me
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« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2011, 05:49:PM » |
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Well I'm wondering about Pope Benedict, if what you say is true and he has committed heresy (if you are indeed suggesting that, and if I didn't misunderstand your argument) - then aren't the sedevacantists correct? that's why I asked, how can we then go to Mass, because every Catholic church believes that Pope Benedict is the Pope. If however he did not commit heresy, then this argument is not applicable. To be honest, I am confused about all this.
No, an Pope who is a heretic before or after he is Supreme Pontiff has to be declared officially by the Church that he is a formal heretic. If the Pope is a heretic, then where is the Church? :( I don't think I understand sedevacantism.. I think Dan is saying that the Pope is still the head of the Catholic Church, because the Church has not judged him to be a formal heretic. So then it would follow that sedevacantism is wrong, but that God may allow terrible things in His Church, even in the Pope - as He allowed Christ to be seemingly destroyed by His enemies. Think of Christ's saying "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me". The Church is suffering like Christ to have a Pope say heretical things. But Christ was not really abandoned by God, and Christ has not abandoned His Church. It will triumph in the end and Christ is always with it. "The gates of hell will not prevail against it" Trust in God, and don't let all the confusion disturb your peace of mind. I agree it is all very confusing (sedevacatism included) |
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Doce Me Veritatem (Teach me truth) - Mt. Saint Mary College motto
Everybody who is incapable of learning has taken to teaching. - Oscar Wilde
How can we live in harmony? First we need to know we are all madly in love with the same God. - St. Thomas Aquinas (from lists of quotes)
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little_flower10
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« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2011, 06:40:PM » |
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I think that I'm sort of at the point where I'm not sure what to think anymore.... sedevacantists believe that: according to Church law, anyone who teaches heresies is a heretic and excommunicated from the Church (according to Canon Law). They believe that the Pope has taught heresy (whether it's ex cathedra or not doesn't matter, cause - this makes him a heretic and outside the Church). They say the Church has not judged him to be a heretic cause the Church is in crisis too. So doesn't that mean the Catholic Church has failed?  I tried to say before that maybe the Pope has not taught any heresy, - and we don't really have the authority to judge that... but people are telling me that praying with non Christians is a heresy, etc. I'm not sure how to reply. |
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Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
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† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †
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« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2011, 06:53:PM » |
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I think that I'm sort of at the point where I'm not sure what to think anymore.... sedevacantists believe that: according to Church law, anyone who teaches heresies is a heretic and excommunicated from the Church (according to Canon Law). They believe that the Pope has taught heresy (whether it's ex cathedra or not doesn't matter, cause - this makes him a heretic and outside the Church). They say the Church has not judged him to be a heretic cause the Church is in crisis too. So doesn't that mean the Catholic Church has failed? I tried to say before that maybe the Pope has not taught any heresy, - and we don't really have the authority to judge that... but people are telling me that praying with non Christians is a heresy, etc. I'm not sure how to reply. Little Flower, I would like to help answer your questions, but this topic is not permitted to be discussed here per the forum rules. I would recommend sending your questions in PM so as not to break the rules. These are good questions, though! |
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I n N omine P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no. 9, June 29, 1896). “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).
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UnamSanctam
"I believe, O Lord. Help my unbelief."
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« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2011, 06:54:PM » |
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Think of those during the Great Schism of the Avignon Papacy. Where was the Church then? Outside the Church there is no salvation, but what is the Church.
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"Everything that is not eternal, is nothing"
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UnamSanctam
"I believe, O Lord. Help my unbelief."
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« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2011, 06:58:PM » |
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Antipopes have occupied the Roman See in the visible Church before, Popes have . The visible Church was at one time largely Arian.
Quid est veritas?
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"Everything that is not eternal, is nothing"
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Old Salt
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Sancta Dei Genitrix Ora Pro Nobis.
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« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2011, 08:35:PM » |
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Anti-Popes have been officially declared by the Church as such, at the time.
The Pope is only a heretic if he is declared as such by the Church.
Otherwise he is a valid Pope.
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Don't forget to pray for the dead.
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little_flower10
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« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2011, 08:37:PM » |
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Anti-Popes have been officially declared by the Church as such, at the time.
The Pope is only a heretic if he is declared as such by the Church.
Otherwise he is a valid Pope.
but who has the authority to declare the Pope a heretic? the sedevacantists would say that this hasn't happened cause the Church is going through such a big crisis :( |
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Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.
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