INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
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† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †
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« on: October 23, 2011, 11:41:AM » |
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These videos from Harvard University have become quite popular in the last several years, so I am not sure how many of you are already familiar with them, but, in case you are not, you should consider taking a few minutes to examine the work Harvard University has been doing to animate the "Inner Life of the Cell". You can find a collection of them on YouTube or the multimedia division of Harvard's website. I found this video of ATP synthase, the motor protein responsible for powering the cell (seen about half-way through the video), particularly fascinating. ATP synthase is one of the many products of evolution's biggest quandary: autopoiesis ("self-creation"), which is the "network" of self-replicating and circular "processes of production (transformation and destruction) of components which . . . through their interactions and transformations continuously regenerate and realize the network of processes (relations) that produced them." 1This little motor protein, which is of itself an expression of the central dogma of biology, is the essential energy currency of the cell which is responsible for powering complicated intra-cellular activity and for building complex molecules, such as itself. "[L]ife could not exist without ATP or a similar molecule that would have the same function. ATP is an example of a molecule that displays irreducible complexity which cannot be simplified and still function 2." 3
1 Maturana, H. Varela, F. 1980. Autopoiesis and Cognition. The Realization of the Living. 2 Behe, Michael. 1996. Darwin’s black box: The biochemical challenge to evolution. The Free Press. New York. 3 Bergman, J. 1999. ATP: The Perfect Energy Currency for the Cell. CRSQ Volume 36[1]. |
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« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 12:34:AM by INPEFESS »
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I n N omine P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no. 9, June 29, 1896). “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
Member
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Personality type: Mostly melancholic
Posts: 10,836
† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †
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« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2011, 12:17:AM » |
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Well, at least I thought it was fascinating . . .  |
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I n N omine P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no. 9, June 29, 1896). “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).
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Mithrandylan
Banned for promoting sedevacantism
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Divínum auxílium ✝ maneat semper nobíscum.
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« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2011, 12:22:AM » |
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INP- I have no idea what any of this means! Never took to science or math... but based just off the fact that you're posting it, I'm sure it's interesting.  |
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
Member
Gender:
Personality type: Mostly melancholic
Posts: 10,836
† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †
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« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2011, 12:31:AM » |
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INP- I have no idea what any of this means! Never took to science or math... but based just off the fact that you're posting it, I'm sure it's interesting. LOL Did you watch the video? |
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I n N omine P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no. 9, June 29, 1896). “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).
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Mithrandylan
Banned for promoting sedevacantism
Regular
Gender:
Location: Tundra
Personality type: Melancholy- a point below phlegmatic
Posts: 10,141
Divínum auxílium ✝ maneat semper nobíscum.
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« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2011, 12:34:AM » |
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No... Does it explain it well? Like, for a two year old? |
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
Member
Gender:
Personality type: Mostly melancholic
Posts: 10,836
† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †
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« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2011, 12:36:AM » |
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No... Does it explain it well? Like, for a two year old? No, it doesn't explain it at all. You just watch the video and enjoy the nice, relaxing music with a cold beverage of your choice while reflecting upon the magnificence of God's omniscience. I'm sure you can handle that . . . |
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I n N omine P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no. 9, June 29, 1896). “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).
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Walty
Gold Fish
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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2011, 12:49:AM » |
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The universe is a strange place.
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The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes;
she is tolerant in practice because she loves.
The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe;
they are intolerant in practice because they do not love. Timorem Domini docebo vos. |
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
Member
Gender:
Personality type: Mostly melancholic
Posts: 10,836
† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †
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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2011, 12:58:AM » |
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The universe is a strange place.
And a fascinating one! |
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I n N omine P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no. 9, June 29, 1896). “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).
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Titus Alba
Night Owl
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2 Corinthians 7:6
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2011, 01:37:AM » |
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Boring. This stuff just evolved out of nothing over billions of years. Duh. Seriously, though, I don't know how anybody could give this idea any credence, particularly microbiologists who are more familiar with cells, given the sheer complexity of it all. Similarly, Hawking and his friends are in the same boat, but on a grand scale. It's like "ok, basically what happened was there was nothing, and then it went bang, for no reason, mind you, and then here we are!"  |
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He flees from the light, in the sense that he does not look for the glory of human praise.
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
Member
Gender:
Personality type: Mostly melancholic
Posts: 10,836
† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2011, 03:00:AM » |
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Boring. This stuff just evolved out of nothing over billions of years. Duh.
Seriously, though, I don't know how anybody could give this idea any credence, particularly microbiologists who are more familiar with cells, given the sheer complexity of it all. Yes, this issue particularly interests me. How is it that we can stare into the depths of microbiological complexity and still deny the existence of a Designer? This particular subject of microbiology--that is, ATP synthase as a product of autopoiesis--is intriguing. How do they explain this away? Here is an overview of how they do it: The evolution of ATP synthase is thought to be an example of modular evolution, where two subunits with their own functions have become associated and gained new functionality. This coupling must have occurred early in the evolution of life as evidenced by essentially the same structure and processes of ATP synthase enzymes conserved in all kingdoms of life. The F-ATP synthase shows large amounts of similarity both functionally and mechanically to the V-ATPase. However whilst the F-ATP synthase generates ATP by utilising a proton gradient the V-ATPase is responsible for generating a proton gradient at the expense of ATP, generating pH values as low as 1. The F1 particle also shows significant similarity to hexameric DNA helicases and the FO particle shows some similarity to H+ powered flagellar motor complexes. The α3β3 hexamer of the F1 particle shows significant structural similarity to hexameric DNA helicases; both form a ring with 3 fold rotational symmetry with a central pore. Both also have roles dependent on the relative rotation of a macromolecule within the pore; the DNA helicases use the helical shape of DNA to drive their motion along the DNA molecule and to detect supercoiling whilst the α3β3 hexamer uses the conformational changes due rotation of the γ subunit to drive an enzymatic reaction.
The H+ motor of the FO particle shows great functional similarity to the H+ motors seen in flagellar motors. Both feature a ring of many small alpha helical proteins that rotate relative to nearby stationary proteins using a H+ potential gradient as an energy source. This is, however, a fairly tenuous link - the overall structure of flagellar motors is far more complex than the FO particle and the ring of rotating proteins is far larger, with around 30 compared to the 10, 11, or 14 known in the FO complex.
The modular evolution theory for the origin of ATP synthase suggests that two subunits with independent function, a DNA helicase with ATPase activity and a H+ motor, were able to bind, and the rotation of the motor drives the ATPase activity of the helicase in reverse. This would then evolve to become more efficient, and eventually develop into the complex ATP synthases seen today. In alternative fashion, the DNA helicase/H+ motor complex may have had H+ pump activity, the ATPase activity of the helicase driving the H+ motor in reverse. This could later evolve to carry out the reverse reaction and act as an ATP synthase. So, two independent macromolecular subunits combined--dare we admit "inexplicably"?--to form the most primitive form of ATP synthase. This primitive motor then gradually evolved in such a way as to enable more complex intra-cellular systems to subsequently evolve, which then became reliant upon the specialized energy currency of the refined ATP synthase in order to exist. But there seem to be a few problems with that.
Without ATP, life as we understand it could not exist. It is a perfectly-designed, intricate molecule that serves a critical role in providing the proper size energy packet for scores of thousands of classes of reactions that occur in all forms of life. Even viruses rely on an ATP molecule identical to that used in humans. The ATP energy system is quick, highly efficient, produces a rapid turnover of ATP, and can rapidly respond to energy demand changes (Goodsell, 1996, p.79).
"Furthermore, the ATP molecule is so enormously intricate that we are just now beginning to understand how it works. Each ATP molecule is over 500 atomic mass units (500 u). In manufacturing terms, the ATP molecule is a machine with a level of organization on the order of a research microscope or a standard television (Darnell, Lodish, and Baltimore, 1996).
"Among the questions evolutionists must answer include the following, 'How did life exist before ATP?' 'How could life survive without ATP since no form of life we know of today can do that?' and 'How could ATP evolve and where are the many transitional forms required to evolve the complex ATP molecule?' No feasible candidates exist and none can exist because only a perfect ATP molecule can properly carry out its role in the cell.
"In addition, a potential ATP candidate molecule would not be selected for by evolution until it was functional and life could not exist without ATP or a similar molecule that would have the same function. ATP is an example of a molecule that displays irreducible complexity which cannot be simplified and still function (Behe, 1996). ATP could have been created only as a unit to function immediately in life and the same is true of the other intricate energy molecules used in life such as GTP.
"Although other energy molecules can be used for certain cell functions, none can even come close to satisfactorily replacing all the many functions of ATP. Over 100,000 other detailed molecules like ATP have also been designed to enable humans to live, and all the same problems related to their origin exist for them all. Many macromolecules that have greater detail than ATP exist, as do a few that are less highly organized, and in order for life to exist all of them must work together as a unit."
Behe, Michael. 1996. Darwin’s black box: The biochemical challenge to evolution. The Free Press. New York.
Darnell, James, Harvey Lodish, and David Baltimore. 1996. Molecular cell biology, 3rd edition. W.H. Freeman. New York.
Goodsell, David S. 1996. Our molecular nature. Springer-Verlag. New York.
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I n N omine P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no. 9, June 29, 1896). “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).
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