The crisis since Vatican II, What are the numbers?

[MaximusScriptorius]

I am doing a bit of research concerning the decline of baptisms, mass attendance, etc.. since Vatican II and the promulgation of the new mass.
It seems that this book would be essential to my research so I should probably get a copy-

http://www.amazon.com/Index-Leading-Catholic-Indicators-Vatican/dp/0972868801/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320836865&sr=8-1

The book was written in 2003. Is there anywhere I can get some statistics from 2003 to the present day?
Also, has anyone documented the growth of traditional groups/seminaries vs. novus ordo groups/seminaries in the last 10 years or so instead of just presenting the numbers to represent the entire Church?

Lastly, if you have a copy of the above mentioned book that you would like to part with, please check the Buy and Trade section for my post.

Thanks.

[MaximusScriptorius]

Bump.

I'm a bit surprised no one responded, so I bumped. 

[Jackson K. Eskew]

I seem to recall mention of such a book in the following sermon:

http://www.sgg.org/2011/11/27/why-latin/

The beginning of this one has a crushing litany of statistics:

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20080310-2008-Lenten-Mission-Part-1-Recognizing-the-Signs-of-the-Times.html

I don't recall whether he mentions his source.

[Aragon]

I seem to recall mention of such a book in the following sermon:

http://www.sgg.org/2011/11/27/why-latin/

The beginning of this one has a crushing litany of statistics:

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20080310-2008-Lenten-Mission-Part-1-Recognizing-the-Signs-of-the-Times.html

I don't recall whether he mentions his source.

I think the decline is caused more by the cultural revolution the Western World underwent rather than Vatican II specifically. The Church has actually grown world wide and Catholicism is spreading like wildfire in Asia and Africa. I don't see many traditional churches bursting at the seams, but they're certainly healthier than most Novus Ordo parishes. The Church flung her windows open to the world at the wrong point in history, but I don't think the Church would have continued to enjoy the vitality it did in the first half of the 20th century even if Vatican II never occured.

[SPB]

I think the decline is caused more by the cultural revolution the Western World underwent rather than Vatican II specifically.

Nope. Not only is this not true, even if it were it would still result in the same thing for Vatican II. Why? Because Vatican II claimed to be moving with the times and updating the Church for the modern man - something that was a massive failure. Either way you look at it, the crisis in faith since Vatican II was caused by Vatican II.

[Aragon]

I think the decline is caused more by the cultural revolution the Western World underwent rather than Vatican II specifically.

Nope. Not only is this not true, even if it were it would still result in the same thing for Vatican II. Why? Because Vatican II claimed to be moving with the times and updating the Church for the modern man - something that was a massive failure. Either way you look at it, the crisis in faith since Vatican II was caused by Vatican II.

Which is why I wrote "The Church flung her windows open to the world at the wrong point in history, but I don't think the Church would have continued to enjoy the vitality it did in the first half of the 20th century even if Vatican II never occurred". Vatican II certainly accelerated the process, but do you really think that most Catholics would have been immune to the influences of the world?

Again, if what you're saying is true then we should find traditional Masses in every neighbourhood, packed pews, and a similar retention rate among traditionalist youth (somewhere like 80%) as the Church had 100 years ago. This simply isn't the case. When you're living in the world and that world is screaming a message at you that is diametrically opposed to the message of the Church then you're going to get a lot of people falling away.

[MaximusScriptorius]

The Church flung her windows open to the world at the wrong point in history, but I don't think the Church would have continued to enjoy the vitality it did in the first half of the 20th century even if Vatican II never occurred.

You might be right about that one. The seeds of dissent were already planted when the modernist movement was moving through the church in the late 18 and early 1900's. It took a devastating blow when Pius X crushed it, but many modernists simply moved underground. The council gave them an "excuse" to spread their errors once again. I can't help but think that the times had something to do with it as well. Wasn't the 60's the age of "free thinking".  Like a crab without a shell, many people's minds were already susceptible to acceptance of error/heresy. I doubt that everybody read the council documents and then burst from their homes and said "we are free to think and believe as we wish, let's start with reforming the Liturgy". No, I don't  think it happened that way. The probably heard the dissent from their pulpits.

[Stubborn]

I think the decline is caused more by the cultural revolution the Western World underwent rather than Vatican II specifically.

Nope. Not only is this not true, even if it were it would still result in the same thing for Vatican II. Why? Because Vatican II claimed to be moving with the times and updating the Church for the modern man - something that was a massive failure. Either way you look at it, the crisis in faith since Vatican II was caused by Vatican II.

Sad but true SPB.

Additionally, if someone comes across some statistics for the increase in psychiatric care that followed V2, please post some info on that.
I remember quite a few pre-V2 Catholics, including some nuns, who pretty much, literally lost their minds along with their faith in the V2  revolution. Add that to the list of things we can thank V2 for. :(

   

[Scotus]

I think the decline is caused more by the cultural revolution the Western World underwent rather than Vatican II specifically.

Nope. Not only is this not true, even if it were it would still result in the same thing for Vatican II. Why? Because Vatican II claimed to be moving with the times and updating the Church for the modern man - something that was a massive failure. Either way you look at it, the crisis in faith since Vatican II was caused by Vatican II.

Sad but true SPB.

Additionally, if someone comes across some statistics for the increase in psychiatric care that followed V2, please post some info on that.
I remember quite a few pre-V2 Catholics, including some nuns, who pretty much, literally lost their minds along with their faith in the V2  revolution. Add that to the list of things we can thank V2 for. :(

Fr Chad Ripperger has said that pre-Vatican II there were very few Catholics amongst the patients of mental hospitals. After Vatican II, it appears that Catholics are the largest religious group to be found in such institutions. I think the quote is from his talks on Psychology on his website.

[Stubborn]

I think the decline is caused more by the cultural revolution the Western World underwent rather than Vatican II specifically.

Nope. Not only is this not true, even if it were it would still result in the same thing for Vatican II. Why? Because Vatican II claimed to be moving with the times and updating the Church for the modern man - something that was a massive failure. Either way you look at it, the crisis in faith since Vatican II was caused by Vatican II.

Sad but true SPB.

Additionally, if someone comes across some statistics for the increase in psychiatric care that followed V2, please post some info on that.
I remember quite a few pre-V2 Catholics, including some nuns, who pretty much, literally lost their minds along with their faith in the V2  revolution. Add that to the list of things we can thank V2 for. :(

Fr Chad Ripperger has said that pre-Vatican II there were very few Catholics amongst the patients of mental hospitals. After Vatican II, it appears that Catholics are the largest religious group to be found in such institutions. I think the quote is from his talks on Psychology on his website.

Absolutely the way I remember it. I vaguely remember something on the news in the 70s about the increase of Catholics in mental hospitals. Prior to V2, Catholics used their priest as their shrink because it was sinful to disclose deeply personal information to anyone else and because the advice of your priest was always deemed spiritually and mentally reliable and  overall helpful to ones spiritual and mental well being.

Can you post a link when you get around to it?