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Fish Eaters Traditional Catholic Forum > Church > SSPX "vs" Diocesan "vs" Novus Ordo Discussion > Excommunication
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Author Topic: Excommunication  (Read 2066 times)
aquinasg
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« on: November 09, 2011, 09:35:PM »
UNIGENITUS (Section 3)[2]
Condemnation Of The Errors Of Paschasius Quesnel[1]
Pope Clement XI

92. To suffer in peace an excommunication and an unjust anathema rather than betray truth, is to imitate St. Paul; far be it from rebelling against authority or of destroying unity.

I don't know how far the above condemnation extends. Does it prove that Lefebvre was completely wrong in what he did?
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PeterII
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« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2011, 10:37:PM »
Was there an excommunication and an anathema to begin with?
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aquinasg
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« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2011, 10:41:PM »
John Paul II said he was guilty of a schismatic act and excommunicated him for it
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PeterII
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« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2011, 10:49:PM »
Quote from: aquinasg
John Paul II said he was guilty of a schismatic act and excommunicated him for it

No ferendae sententiae punishment took place.  The Pope is incapable of judging one's interior disposition. 
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aquinasg
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« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2011, 11:05:PM »
He doesn't have to know his heart. Otherwise he could never excommunicate at all (another proposition condemned by Clement XI). The Apostolic Letter Ecclesia Dei clearly states it was a schismatic act and that those involved were excommunicated
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PeterII
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« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2011, 11:26:PM »
Quote from: aquinasg
He doesn't have to know his heart. Otherwise he could never excommunicate at all (another proposition condemned by Clement XI). The Apostolic Letter Ecclesia Dei clearly states it was a schismatic act and that those involved were excommunicated

There has to be a corresponding interior disposition for the penalty to really take effect though.  Without it you are only acting on an assumption. 
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aquinasg
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« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2011, 11:34:PM »
Are you saying there has to be a trial? Lefebvre had many papal audiences. His situation was wellknown and the Pope declred he was in schism. That should be enough for Catholics. Only God knows someones heart. The Church doesn't judge that, but what appears to be the case based on someones external actions
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paul11b
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« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2011, 11:44:PM »
I really do not have an opinion on this subject because I do not know at all, but I wanted to bring this to the discussion, what about when St. Paul said: Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.
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PeterII
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2011, 12:06:AM »
Quote from: aquinasg
Are you saying there has to be a trial? Lefebvre had many papal audiences. His situation was wellknown and the Pope declred he was in schism. That should be enough for Catholics. Only God knows someones heart. The Church doesn't judge that, but what appears to be the case based on someones external actions

It's not enough for Catholics when the doctrinal orthodoxy of the Pope is in question. Fortunately only God knows someone's heart, which is why the punishment can only take place in reality if the interior disposition was bad.  That's simply the nature of a latae sententiae excommunication.
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aquinasg
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2011, 12:07:AM »
UNIGENITUS actually mentions St. Paul
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