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Poll
Question: If a Traditional Latin Mass isn't available, is it alright to attend a Novus Ordo mass?
Its Alright. - 41 (39.4%)
Absolutely not! - 26 (25%)
Okay, so long as the TLM is really not available - 33 (31.7%)
What's a Novus Ordo mass? - 4 (3.8%)
Total Voters: 102

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Author Topic: "Stuck in Novus Ordo Land"  (Read 7612 times)
SPB
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« Reply #70 on: November 29, 2011, 02:15:PM »

Not even ArchBishop Lefebvre thought the NO was invalid. He thought it was valid and orthodox (orthodox as opposed to heretical, not orthodox in the sense of traditional).
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Old Salt
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Sancta Dei Genitrix Ora Pro Nobis.


« Reply #71 on: November 29, 2011, 02:22:PM »

Have any of you been to Father Rutler's 11AM  mass in NYC? I attended it this past Sunday  and the mass is very reverent.  I may  have issues with some things in the OF mass, but I cannot bring myself to believe that the OF is invalid.

After all, our Holy Father celebrates the OF.
I have not been to Fr Rutlers 11am Sunday NO Mass, but I have been to his 12:15 weekday Mass with confessions afterward and it is fine as far as NO Mass's go.
I noticed that Fr does wear the maniple at his NO Mass.
That is rare.
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Don't forget to pray for the dead.
Oro Supplex
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« Reply #72 on: November 29, 2011, 03:52:PM »

Have any of you been to Father Rutler's 11AM  mass in NYC? I attended it this past Sunday  and the mass is very reverent.  I may  have issues with some things in the OF mass, but I cannot bring myself to believe that the OF is invalid.

After all, our Holy Father celebrates the OF.
I have not been to Fr Rutlers 11am Sunday NO Mass, but I have been to his 12:15 weekday Mass with confessions afterward and it is fine as far as NO Mass's go.
I noticed that Fr does wear the maniple at his NO Mass.
That is rare.

The 11AM mass is the solemn mass.

He has the Asperges, the incensing of the servers and people and Gregorian chant and polyphony. The Kyrie, Santus, and Agnus Dei are all in Latin.

Then again, he also offers the EF at the 9AM.

I know some of the prayers are different, but if every OF was that reverent, we would have a lot less issues. 
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Nic
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In Hoc Signo Vinces.


« Reply #73 on: November 29, 2011, 05:09:PM »

That is a tricky question, but at least in my neck of the woods the "Fundamentalist" Protestants, like Baptists, Church of Christ, Pentecostals etc, are very conservative in their total outlook, it is just that most of them have never had the objective opportunity to see Catholicism for what it truly is.  I was raised Southern Baptist, I am a former Fundie, and I can tell you that we were raised to think terrible things about Catholicism (they are the "Whore of Babylon," they worship Mary and statues, they don't put enough emphasis on Jesus, etc.).  Unfortunately, a lot of Fundies are quite stubborn and deeply rooted in their error, but some can be shaken out of it, they just have to start asking themselves the right questions. 

The real sad thing is that since the 1960's, the Church doesn't believe in evangelization anymore - instead the Church is effectively teaching that all Christians are somehow a part of the Catholic Church.  This is exactly what has been taught even from the highest levels of the hierarchy  -  if it wasn't then we would be extremely concerned, as we once were, with getting our "separated brethren" to realize their error and come to the truth of the Catholic Church.

But to get back to the original question, I believe it mostly has to do with where you are in the country, and in the world.  Baptists in my area are quite conservative, at least from a point-of-view concerning what the modern world sees as "conservative," but Baptists in the east are quite liberal, even supporting gay marriage.

I believe that it was Archbishop Lefebvre who stated that the N.O. almost bypassed teaching basic Protestantism and is heading for full-fledged Humanism, which is liberal neo-Protestantism at its worst.  This outlook is prevalent among more mainstream Protestant groups, like Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists etc.  Basically, the groups that support the original heresies of Luther and Calvin, and the groups that make up the vast majority of Protestantism.  IMO, I believe that the fabricators of the N.O. were much more concerned with appeasing the "big picture" among Protestantism as a whole, worldwide - which doesn't constitute the Fundie groups, which is almost completely American, but the more mainstream evangelical groups as mentioned above.

In conclusion, the New Mass simply does NOT teach the true Catholic Faith, this is quite easy to discern.  The law Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, the way we pray is the way we believe, proves this easily.  As Archbishop Lefebvre stated, the New Mass makes Protestants - this is because the New Mass teaches neo-Protestantism.  When the Mass is no longer considered a sacrifice, and no longer teaches it - when the altar, where a sacrifice is made, is removed for a supper table - when Holy Communion is given in the hand while standing - when the priest faces the people instead of facing God upon the altar - who can wonder why people don't believe in fundamental doctrines of the Faith like the Mass is a sacrifice and the Real Presence anymore?  It is because the New Mass, as a whole by its very foundation, is not a Catholic Mass, meaning that it does not teach the Faith.  This alone is reason enough to avoid it at all costs.

I'm interested in you conversion story.  Your profile states that you are in your 30's.  That would seem to suggest that you had no first-hand experience or memory of the pre-V2 Church before you voluntarily CONVERTED into Novus Ordo Catholicism in the 80's. [Correct me if I'm wrong.]

Why did you convert to the CC in the first place?   Were you duped?  By who?   If you despised the liturgy so much, why didn't you just become a Muslim and call it a day?

Your rant has no merit.  No one is required to attend the Novus Ordo.  If YOU choose to, find the cleanest NO in your area.  Arrive early and pray Prayers at the Foot of the Altar before Mass begins and The Last Gospel before you leave.  Receive the Blessed Sacrament on the tongue, from from a priest, or not at all.

Otherwise, bite the bullet and support the TLM, regardless the drive  time.

Here's a dollar.  Just don't cry.









[/quote]

You obviously don't have a clue about my character concerning my actions on this forum since you have a whopping 3 posts, but I'll entertain you nonetheless.

I converted to Catholicism not in the 80's, I was just a small child then if you can do the math - but in my adult life in the year 2004.  I converted to Catholicism because I began to seek the truth, caused by asking myself questions concerning authority, and it went from there - and to be honest I always felt strongly pulled toward the Catholic Church, regardless of being raised to think it was not truly Christian.

I realized, rather quickly, that the Novus Ordo didn't seem Catholic, and that I would hear contradictions made between what I was being taught and what was presented as Catholicism pre-Vatican II.  I would see things in the New Mass that upset my soul - like Holy Communion in the hand, and hearing terrible things in homilies like "Martin Luther was a great man," and being told in confession that Protestants are not in any way heretical.  I strongly felt that something was seriously amiss.

I like to use the frog in boiling water experiment as an example:  When you throw a frog into a pot of boiling water, he jumps out immediately, but if you place a frog in a cool pot of water and bring it to a steady boil, he will boil himself to death.  By using my Catholic sense along with simple common sense combined with a lot of research, I jumped out of the boiling water of the new religion and sought the living water of true Catholicism that is present within Tradition.

You say bite the bullet and support the TLM.  That is what I do.  Unfortunately, my "drive time" is 4.5 hours round trip, and I am on a tight budget.  My SSPX priest told me that I am well within the distance hardship, but I will tell you and everyone on this forum honestly that I do not do enough to make it to more Masses, which is solely on me.  But one thing I will tell you is that my resolve concerning the Traditional stance is strong.  Let no one be fooled, we are in a time of crisis, and during such times we cannot always have the luxury of a true Mass two blocks away.

I believe that I have been given a lot of graces by God to see the truth properly, and unfortunately I squander much of that away, which I will have to answer for some day.  Regardless, I stand with Tradition 100%, even though I may do more standing than acting, which is because I am a terrible sinner.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 05:12:PM by Nic » Logged

"For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."
--Ephesians 6:12

Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."
--St. Athanasius

I find your lack of faith disturbing.
--Darth Vader

 -- God Bless the SSPX.
Nic
Knight of the Cruciform Sword
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Gender: Male
Location: near Rolla, MO
Personality type: ...strange
Posts: 2,134


In Hoc Signo Vinces.


« Reply #74 on: November 29, 2011, 05:16:PM »

Not even ArchBishop Lefebvre thought the NO was invalid. He thought it was valid and orthodox (orthodox as opposed to heretical, not orthodox in the sense of traditional).

Of course, validity is not the issue.  Even a valid Mass can be an occasion of sin.  Even a valid Mass can teach a different religion (Eastern Orthodox Mass, for example.)  The issue is the sacrilege of the New Mass and the simple fact that it doesn't teach the Catholic religion.  These are enough reasons to avoid it.

I believe when one who has sufficient knowledge of such things and attends the New Mass regardless, they are giving their consent to the destruction it has caused - they are guilty by association.  Average Joe Catholic is not, but most on who regularly frequent this forum probably are due to being culpable by knowledge.
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"For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."
--Ephesians 6:12

Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."
--St. Athanasius

I find your lack of faith disturbing.
--Darth Vader

 -- God Bless the SSPX.


Norbert
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Gender: Male
Location: Washington
Personality type: Choleric
Posts: 1,228


« Reply #75 on: November 29, 2011, 06:35:PM »

Not even ArchBishop Lefebvre thought the NO was invalid. He thought it was valid and orthodox (orthodox as opposed to heretical, not orthodox in the sense of traditional).

Of course, validity is not the issue.  Even a valid Mass can be an occasion of sin.  Even a valid Mass can teach a different religion (Eastern Orthodox Mass, for example.)  The issue is the sacrilege of the New Mass and the simple fact that it doesn't teach the Catholic religion.  These are enough reasons to avoid it.

I believe when one who has sufficient knowledge of such things and attends the New Mass regardless, they are giving their consent to the destruction it has caused - they are guilty by association.  Average Joe Catholic is not, but most on who regularly frequent this forum probably are due to being culpable by knowledge.

When the vast majoirity of NOers simply don't know any better, wouldn't it be a near occasion of scandal, that is, sin, for me to refuse to attend mass when there is no TLM available?  I know it would scandalize MY friends, and if I told them "it's valid, but a near occasion of sin", they wouldn't want to hear theology, they'd just think I was being a protestant, which would hurt the witness I have with these people.
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Stubborn
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« Reply #76 on: November 29, 2011, 07:38:PM »

When the vast majoirity of NOers simply don't know any better, wouldn't it be a near occasion of scandal, that is, sin, for me to refuse to attend mass when there is no TLM available?  I know it would scandalize MY friends, and if I told them "it's valid, but a near occasion of sin", they wouldn't want to hear theology, they'd just think I was being a protestant, which would hurt the witness I have with these people.


Why would they think that? Could it be because YOU are known by YOUR friends to have been a NO supporter?

That is something you personally need to work on. I say this because I personally have experienced the loss of close relatives as well as friends as the result of not supporting the NO.

Shake the dust and be done with them if that's what it takes.

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet.


Also.................. Mat 10:34 Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. 35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law..................40 He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 07:44:PM by Stubborn » Logged

It is the Mass that matters.

But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. -Apocalypse  3:16
Norbert
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Gender: Male
Location: Washington
Personality type: Choleric
Posts: 1,228


« Reply #77 on: November 29, 2011, 09:34:PM »

When the vast majoirity of NOers simply don't know any better, wouldn't it be a near occasion of scandal, that is, sin, for me to refuse to attend mass when there is no TLM available?  I know it would scandalize MY friends, and if I told them "it's valid, but a near occasion of sin", they wouldn't want to hear theology, they'd just think I was being a protestant, which would hurt the witness I have with these people.


Why would they think that? Could it be because YOU are known by YOUR friends to have been a NO supporter?

That is something you personally need to work on. I say this because I personally have experienced the loss of close relatives as well as friends as the result of not supporting the NO.

Shake the dust and be done with them if that's what it takes.

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet.


Also.................. Mat 10:34 Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. 35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law..................40 He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me.

As someone who has gotten people here to STOP being "NO supporters" and who has had to more or less abandon my family to their protestantism to pursue the truth, I resent your labeling and I find your assertion that people are better off without my example as an "NO supporter" absurd and insulting. 

I am sorry for your losses but I am not going to damn the NO and its attendees to hell as a general rule, and I'm irritated by the air of superiority that people who make a habit of ignoring vernacular masses.
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Stubborn
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« Reply #78 on: November 30, 2011, 07:35:AM »

As someone who has gotten people here to STOP being "NO supporters" and who has had to more or less abandon my family to their protestantism to pursue the truth, I resent your labeling and I find your assertion that people are better off without my example as an "NO supporter" absurd and insulting.
 


You still support the NO but you've gotten others to stop supporting it. Got it. Then why are you worried about causing your friends scandal by not attending the NO?


I am sorry for your losses but I am not going to damn the NO and its attendees to hell as a general rule, and I'm irritated by the air of superiority that people who make a habit of ignoring vernacular masses.

I'm not sorry, nor do I damn to hell it's attendees as a general rule. In charity, the air of superiority you are irritated by seems to be self inflicted due to you wanting to have it both ways. When one takes a firm stand on the side of tradition, they will naturally be anti-NO because the NO is anti-tradition. If you believe yourself to be a traditionalist yet support the anti-traditional NO then plan to encounter conflict from both sides.

No insult to you intended I assure you.
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It is the Mass that matters.

But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. -Apocalypse  3:16
Old Salt
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Personality type: melancholic
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Sancta Dei Genitrix Ora Pro Nobis.


« Reply #79 on: November 30, 2011, 08:34:AM »

"I'm not sorry, nor do I damn to hell it's attendees as a general rule."

Just specifically.
Cripes.
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Don't forget to pray for the dead.
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