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Author Topic: OK for Trads to Debate Vatican II, not the Holocaust  (Read 9578 times)
James02
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« Reply #100 on: December 23, 2011, 06:34:PM »

Weak.  You admit you know nothing about Hungary, Bela Kuhn, the Bavarian Revolution, or what went down in the Baltics during the early 40's, and you are going to come here with an opinion.  Do some homework.  And how does a murdered priest "appear" to be murdered?  Did they all up and commit mass suicide?  If you want to learn about murdered priests, start by researching Bela Kuhn.  Look at actual photos of Spanish priests with their heads blown apart by commies.  Same commies the Jews in America organized volunteer brigades to go fight for.  Do you think not a few Catholics were pissed off by that?

Do some homework first.

And what is with the ridiculous straw man?  Who here doesn't applaud the heroic actions of Pope Pius XII in saving innocent people?  How many times do I have to say lining up innocent women and children and blowing their brains out is a grave evil?  I'll add most of the men, who were not political.

The question that came out during this discussion is how the Germans could have such an animosity towards the Jews.  I gave some reasons, BUT DIDN'T EXCUSE THE CRIMES.  Check them out for yourself.  But no one here denies that probably over 95% of the murdered Jews were innocent.
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"God's Wrath is Glorious, and I have a front row seat"

"We can not guarantee success.  We can only deserve it."

"And who do you say that I Am?"
"That one simple question, whether Jesus of Nazareth was God Incarnate, becomes increasingly decisive between people, as history moves forward. .... The answer to this question cuts into human ties and seems to reflect even on the nature of inanimate things.  What if:  all that is folly in the eyes of the Greeks, and scandal in the eyes of the Jews, ... is Truth?"

And there was no doubt about it -- towards Him we had been running, or from Him we had been running away, but all the time He had been in the center of things.
James02
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« Reply #101 on: December 23, 2011, 06:47:PM »

Quote from: BrotherNathanWebsite
* In Barcelona on July 17 1936, a Jewish group from Stalin’s International Brigade called at the Dominican Convent in Barcelona. The Jewish leader informed the Mother Superior that because of fear of mob violence he had orders to take the nuns to a place of safety.

~ The soldiers took the unsuspecting nuns to the suburbs and shot them all in cold blood. Afterwards, the leader remarked, “We needed their building. We didn’t want to muss it up before we occupied it.”

* In Barcelona in 1937, the Naftali-Botwin Jewish Company tortured and mocked a priest before they finally hung his dismembered body from a statue of the Virgin Mary.

~ A second priest was transfixed to a made-up crucifix and hung on it while he was still living.

* In Huelva Spain in 1938, the mayor of the city turned over the civil administration to Stalin’s International Brigade. Their first act was to torture and shoot all the priests of the city. The nuns of Huelva were stripped naked and driven into the streets to provide sport for the Jewish Communists. Then they were all shot in cold blood."
  Could this explain why German Catholics were pissed off?  Does it excuse rounding up innocent shop keepers, their wives and kids and blowing their brains out?  Of course not, and no one made that claim.
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"God's Wrath is Glorious, and I have a front row seat"

"We can not guarantee success.  We can only deserve it."

"And who do you say that I Am?"
"That one simple question, whether Jesus of Nazareth was God Incarnate, becomes increasingly decisive between people, as history moves forward. .... The answer to this question cuts into human ties and seems to reflect even on the nature of inanimate things.  What if:  all that is folly in the eyes of the Greeks, and scandal in the eyes of the Jews, ... is Truth?"

And there was no doubt about it -- towards Him we had been running, or from Him we had been running away, but all the time He had been in the center of things.
jonbhorton
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« Reply #102 on: December 23, 2011, 07:04:PM »

So, really, the beef is with communists... not practicing Jews, or Jews in general? Well, well, then...

The insinuation, re: "strawman" is that, from what I can tell by some of the more venomous comments here, Jews deserve no protection, should be eradicated, etc. You'd almost think it was the position of the Church that murdered people got what was coming to them.

Keep in mind, the same people who hate Jews on a broad scale hate the Catholic Church. It's just sad that so many Catholics wish to bolster such a stupid, ignorant historical viewpoint.

The real enemy is communism, islam, etc. If some, or even a majority, of Jews are communist, they are no longer really Jews.

Don't worry though, given the situation with Israel and Iran, I have a feeling they will be "coming home" soon. Or not. Either way, I don't see the need to engage in the same tactics against the Jews that we decry as false against the Church.

What I have read here is a lot of factoids being thrown out for what is at its core an emotional argument based on hate.

If you want Jews to burn in hell, keep on with your bad self. Or, you could actually just put aside the actions of a few and focus on making sure you are able to engage in conversation with them at a level that makes them seek what they currently lack- Messiah. Kinda hard to do that when one harbors such a seething hatred that I have to wonder if they hold membership at a neo-nazi site as well.
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Hawaii Five-0
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« Reply #103 on: December 23, 2011, 07:17:PM »

So, really, the beef is with communists... not practicing Jews, or Jews in general? Well, well, then...

The insinuation, re: "strawman" is that, from what I can tell by some of the more venomous comments here, Jews deserve no protection, should be eradicated, etc. You'd almost think it was the position of the Church that murdered people got what was coming to them.

Keep in mind, the same people who hate Jews on a broad scale hate the Catholic Church. It's just sad that so many Catholics wish to bolster such a stupid, ignorant historical viewpoint.

The real enemy is communism, islam, etc. If some, or even a majority, of Jews are communist, they are no longer really Jews.

Don't worry though, given the situation with Israel and Iran, I have a feeling they will be "coming home" soon. Or not. Either way, I don't see the need to engage in the same tactics against the Jews that we decry as false against the Church.

What I have read here is a lot of factoids being thrown out for what is at its core an emotional argument based on hate.

If you want Jews to burn in hell, keep on with your bad self. Or, you could actually just put aside the actions of a few and focus on making sure you are able to engage in conversation with them at a level that makes them seek what they currently lack- Messiah. Kinda hard to do that when one harbors such a seething hatred that I have to wonder if they hold membership at a neo-nazi site as well.

You forgot to include Judaism in your list... Today's Judaism, which is the false religion passed down from the Pharisees who rejected Our Lord, is antichrist.  As far as a Jew who is a commie not being a real Jew goes; you're deluded.
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jonbhorton
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« Reply #104 on: December 23, 2011, 07:49:PM »



You forgot to include Judaism in your list... Today's Judaism, which is the false religion passed down from the Pharisees who rejected Our Lord, is antichrist.  As far as a Jew who is a commie not being a real Jew goes; you're deluded.

Yes, because those talmudic Jews have such power. Just today, I was stopped and asked where my yellow Cross was on my clothes.

Please. Talmudic Judaism is no enemy in actual practice. It is an enemy of Truth, sure. I don't recall ever defending the Jewish religion as it exists now.

You're basically setting up the "Christ killers" argument, it seems.

And a communist could not be any more a Jew than the Jews who have gone to Baal worship, or anything else not pleasing to God. Communism is atheistic. What you are left with is an ethnic shell of a man, not anything remotely "Jewish".

A communist Jew is no more a Jew than a communist of Italian-Catholic origin is Catholic. The only difference is we tend to still let the Jew keep his ethnic identity as a society. But they are by no means a real Jew. That's the beauty of Catholicism- it doesn't really care about ethnicity.

As for my opinion of modern Judaism, I'd just have to refer you to Romans 11.

I don't think the Jewish people are going to heaven en masse for simply rocking a circumcision.  They will have to accept Christ. I actually feel the best way for this to happen is through the Catholic Church. Especially the TLM. It is, after all, very "Jewish" in origin and symbolism. Christianity is fullfilled Judaism after all. Contract ended and a new one was laid on the table. A lot of Jews didn't like the terms laid out. They're not signatories. But they are no more damnable than you or I.

 It would behoove you to quit combining what are conflicting entities to better serve your argument. An argument which seems to focus on Jews as if they have global telepathy and unity in action and thought. They simply don't. No more than, say, there is an international Indian conspiracy to take over call centers.

In a lot of ways, this is like arguing islamic action versus the actions of despots in traditionally islamic countries. Sometimes the lines blur, but, ultimately- the despot is at odds with the religious and often is no more muslim than I am muslim, which is to say not at all.

The difference is, the Jews and Christians agree on the literal portions very text which can lead to showing Jews how Jesus is the Messiah and they need to get with the program. Muslims are a lost cause in terms of witnessing via scripture and tradition, for the most part.

I have a friend completing his PhD in Israeli studies. I asked him once about the Jewish Orthodox and their views of Jesus in light of Rabbi Yitzhak Kaduri's visions and note regarding the Messiah (Rabbi Kaduri confirmed Jesus as the Messiah to the horror of his students, though he used the Hebrew name, Yehoshua.) My friend stated that he thinks a lot of devout Jews actually believe in Jesus as the Messiah. The problem comes in bringing them into the fold, away from what amounts to Messianic Orthodox practices.

I guess the end all be all is why the heck this is such a topic worthy of discussion in light of the bigger problems we face. You're simply not going to win Jewish souls to Jesus this way. If it came down to "who was historically most correct" versus "who claimed to be correct historically", I'd venture to guess the answer is: who the heck cares if the only prize to be claimed is furthering the distrust Jewish people feel of the Church.

There was much potential for progress to be made in bringing in the Jewish people after ww2. But, this attitude of pure hatred is just ridiculous and serves no good at all.

I bet we could rebuild the railroad tracks into Auschwitz with all the logs in our eyes.

Maybe we would see a Saint by the name of Edith Stein pass by as we waited for a new load to get "what they deserve".

I can visualize the day we're staring out those box cars, or hiding in those woods, because at the end of the day- the same arguments have been, and are, levied against Catholics and the Church.

Somehow, though, I can't see practicing Jews being the causation of such a possible reality.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 07:58:PM by jonbhorton » Logged

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Heinrich
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« Reply #105 on: December 23, 2011, 08:11:PM »

You took a lot of time to write a bunch of nonsense, Herr Horton.
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jonbhorton
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« Reply #106 on: December 23, 2011, 08:18:PM »

In regards to Bela Kuhn: he was, at the core, a communist product of no real religion at all it seems. Secular, humanist, communist. Jewish only in ethnicity, based on what little digging I've done since being admonished over not knowing the particulars of something the topic has nothing to do with in principle.

The topic was not, and is not, about Bavaria, Bela Kuhn, etc. It was supposed to be about the Holocaust. Did it happen? Yes. Were millions of Jews killed? Yes. Were millions of other people killed? Yes. Does any ethnic group deserve to be rounded up and slaughtered? No. Are there elements within any ethnic group which inherently bring out the super-suckiness of humankind? Absolutely. Have some of these people been ethnic Jews? Yes. Were they employing  traditionally Jewish ideas or acting on behalf of the Jewish people in terms of religion or even ethnic identification? No. They were espousing a political doctrine which has found the most favor amongst NON-Jews.

However, it seems that those inconvenient truths are tucked into a corner in favor of emotional ranting against all things Jewish.

I really don't give a damn about Bavaria in the 30's, Bela Kuhn, or Hungary. I was addressing the hatred seething forth, not historical facts about declared communists who may or may not know how to read the Torah in Hebrew.

If German Catholics, or any Catholics, have been angry about the way they've been treated, I don't doubt that they have a valid reason. But those things hardly give credence to the hatefulness with which a few are speaking.

Again, what is the cause of this hatred and what is the effect? Are these things able to be reconciled with the mission of the Catholic Church, and ours as Christians? Not really.

But, if some communists come try to kill my priest or burn down the parish I attend, I'll kill em dead- no matter if they still have their foreskin or not.
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****** Classes are picking up and I now need to focus. First week is over and I can see the Profs were going "easy" in week 1. Be back when I have time. Randomly in effect. OUT.******
Hawaii Five-0
Banned for snarkiness and because he doesn't like this place anyway
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Me and my little pet monkey, his name is Skippy.


« Reply #107 on: December 23, 2011, 08:37:PM »

Like I said, you're delusional jbh.  Shrug
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jonbhorton
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« Reply #108 on: December 23, 2011, 09:00:PM »

Nonsense, delusional... please, educate me so I too can hate Jews with a studious passion which relies on the actions of communists as its actual basis. Everyone loves a good scapegoat.

In fact, come at me with something not communist, because again, communists aren't religious. When you take away religion, Jews are just friggin people. People given to bad decisions, sin, murder, theft, etc.

Any time people are involved, outside of the protection of the Holy Ghost, it sucks. Plain and simple. I suck, you suck, they suck, we all suck.

Continue to rant against the jooooooos all ya want. But the way you do it is no more sensible than hating every single American because of travesties against Mexican Catholics in our incursions into what was then disputed territory. If you recall, a bunch of Catholics switched sides on that one for both religious and national reasons. They are venerated in Mexico as the Saint Patrick's Battalion.

If you want to destroy the Jews as a perceived pariah, I suggest loving them. They become forced to stop focusing on their own Jewishness and to actually defend the Tanakh, which is loaded with proof of the legitimacy of Christ, and thus, the Catholic Church.

Anything outside of that, and you might as well just admit you're a Jew hater because all you're accomplishing is hate- real or perceived.
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****** Classes are picking up and I now need to focus. First week is over and I can see the Profs were going "easy" in week 1. Be back when I have time. Randomly in effect. OUT.******
Tapatio
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« Reply #109 on: December 23, 2011, 09:43:PM »

You took a lot of time to write a bunch of nonsense, Herr Horton.

This.
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"If anyone thus speaks, that the Roman Pontiff has only the office of inspection or direction but not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the universal Church, not only in things which pertain to faith and morals, but also in those which pertain to the discipline and government of the Church spread over the whole world...let him be anathema." (Vatican I, Dz 1825, 1831)

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