Mission Creep in the SSPX

[Parmandur]

Do you actually think that the Church as it is today is going to allow the SSPX, who openly attack Vatican II and urge its followers to NEVER attend the rite of Mass that "Rome" calls the "Ordinary Form, to be somehow regularized within the hierarchial structure of the Church?  No way!  The only way that this will happen is if Bishop Fellay compromises on critical points that the saintly founder of the Society said to never compromise on (such as never attending the New Mass because it is non-Catholic worship).  

If "Rome" does allow the SSPX into "regularization" as the SSPX operates today, I will be more than extremely surprised.  It would make no sense - it would be contradictory to the positions of modern Rome.  It would meant that Rome agrees with the SSPX concerning the New Mass and that it is not obligatory, because the "regularized" SSPX would continue to operate as always, telling its followers to stay away from the New Mass no matter what.  Sorry, just don't see that happening yet.

Even though the USA Society webpage says that no one should fulfill the obligation at a NO Mass, in fact it is a case by case matter with different SSPX priests saying different things.
In my case, I have told the two main priests that offer Mass at our SSPX chapel, that my wife and I on occasion fulfill the holyday obligation at Novus Ordo Mass.
They have both nodded their heads and oone priest said nothing and the other wanted to know "what parish", when I told him he knew the pastor and said "good priest".
So it depends on who you talk to.
Also my uncle is an SSPX priest and I have told him several times that we go to NO Mass when we have no other choice and he agreed.

Old Salt, how dare you not conform to a simplistic black and white scheme of reality. 

[Nic]

Do you actually think that the Church as it is today is going to allow the SSPX, who openly attack Vatican II and urge its followers to NEVER attend the rite of Mass that "Rome" calls the "Ordinary Form, to be somehow regularized within the hierarchial structure of the Church?  No way!  The only way that this will happen is if Bishop Fellay compromises on critical points that the saintly founder of the Society said to never compromise on (such as never attending the New Mass because it is non-Catholic worship).  

If "Rome" does allow the SSPX into "regularization" as the SSPX operates today, I will be more than extremely surprised.  It would make no sense - it would be contradictory to the positions of modern Rome.  It would meant that Rome agrees with the SSPX concerning the New Mass and that it is not obligatory, because the "regularized" SSPX would continue to operate as always, telling its followers to stay away from the New Mass no matter what.  Sorry, just don't see that happening yet.

Even though the USA Society webpage says that no one should fulfill the obligation at a NO Mass, in fact it is a case by case matter with different SSPX priests saying different things.
In my case, I have told the two main priests that offer Mass at our SSPX chapel, that my wife and I on occasion fulfill the holyday obligation at Novus Ordo Mass.
They have both nodded their heads and oone priest said nothing and the other wanted to know "what parish", when I told him he knew the pastor and said "good priest".
So it depends on who you talk to.
Also my uncle is an SSPX priest and I have told him several times that we go to NO Mass when we have no other choice and he agreed.

Old Salt, how dare you not conform to a simplistic black and white scheme of reality. 

Tell me, what is wrong with a "black and white scheme of reality."  What is wrong with Truth VS Error.  There is no middle ground, my friend.  Jesus said you are either with Me or against Me - he never gave a gray area in between.  The problem with the modern world is that there isn't this kind of rationality anymore.  It is all compromise and bullshit.  The neo-con Catholics have shown just how ridiculous it is to try and wave both flags.  You wave one, not the other.  You are either weeds, or you are wheat - you are not a weedy wheat or a wheaty weed.  You are with God - or you are with the Devil.  That is just about as black and white as can be, now isn't it?

[newyorkcatholic]

Whats the IBP? Also I pretty much agree with your post.

Institut Bon Pasteur, I think.

butchered spelling.

Good spelling except it's "Institut du Bon Pasteur."  ("Du" is a contraction of "de le" which of "of the").

They are another trad society that more recently were regularized, made of former SSPX.  Smaller than the FSSP.  They have some sort of written permission in their agreement with the Holy See to be able to critique V2 without crossing certain lines (don't know what those lines are).

They have a small chapel in Bogota that I've visited -- a beautiful place except for one odd liturgical anomaly.

May I please ask what is that one odd liturgical anomaly?

I edited my post to add a description.  I realized my post was too cryptic and I should have just said what I saw.

[Stubborn]

It appears to me that there are two camps in the SSPX.

First, the SSPX was created by (future Saint) ABL to preserve Tradition, and most importantly, to make the Traditional Sacraments available to all Catholics as much as possible.  I believe that Bishop (future Pope) Fellay comes from that background.

It appears now that some want the SSPX to reform the Church.  That comes across as spiritual pride.  So they don't want any reunion until Rome has reformed.  In a nutshell, as long as there is a Novus Ordo mess, no reunion.

Now there are PRACTICAL things to consider.  If you set up a structure for the SSPX to operate in, can you successfully insulate it from attacks so that the SSPX can continue ITS MISSION effectively?   This is a common theme of Bishop Fellay, and I respect it.

However, Bishop Fellay brought this on himself.  I remember reading BS on the SSPX site that says Catholics should avoid going to Mass at the FSSP because they might hear a homily preaching how great Voo Pooh was.  I was wondering what world they were living in, an attributed it to ongoing aminosity from the break-up when the FSSP was formed.  Actually, my favorite homilist is an FSSP priest and he is an unapologetic Feeneyite.

So you have two factions, and they will split.  The former will reunite.  The Pope himself already set up the IBP, and they are not allowed to say the N.O., and they can criticize Voo Pooh.  Most FSSP priest openly criticize it already.  So getting something set up for the SSPX is just a matter of getting the details right.  It is doable.  And Bishop Fellay is actively negotiating this now.

The latter faction will go into schism.  There is no preventing it.  Fellay can only minimize the numbers.

I normally agree with most of what you post James, but seems you have overlooked a few things.

1) The NO hates tradition and did whatever it could to make it disappear 50 years ago, after nearly succeeding, the NO can now enjoy being somewhat indifferent - but it still hates all things traditional.
2) The "Olive Branch" that Rome has extended to SSPX is a flaming joke because Rome needs to brandish a mighty sword to the NO, not an Olive Branch to SSPX.
3) The FSSP are only allowed to do so much - folks who think the SSPX will do better than FSSP fool themselves.........reference #1.
4) The Church is really in no better shape these days than they were when the SSPX formed, and they formed primarily because there was no Mass ANYWHERE, it's parody was, and still is - every where instead..........with *VERY FEW* exceptions.
5) SSPX dissuades folks from FSSP, NO, pretty much all churches that are non-SSPX for a specific reason that has nothing whatsoever to do with "sour grapes".
SSPX made a pretty much blanket policy of non-participation with non-SSPX Masses way, way back 30+ years ago - *primarily because* MOST (nearly all?) folks have no idea of the danger that they *may well be* exposing themselves too when they attend a diocesan or some other non-SSPX Mass. For the most part, that "policy" (as I call it) is good for those folks who are newer to the traditional faith and Mass.
6) Until Rome takes the sword to the NO, cleans out all the modernist crooks from Her house, *shows* (proves)  She is no longer Anti-Tradition, does away with the Parody of the Holy Sacrifice and, basically, returns to being Catholic - the SSPX are as right today as they were 45+ years ago.
   
   

[Nic]

It appears to me that there are two camps in the SSPX.

First, the SSPX was created by (future Saint) ABL to preserve Tradition, and most importantly, to make the Traditional Sacraments available to all Catholics as much as possible.  I believe that Bishop (future Pope) Fellay comes from that background.

It appears now that some want the SSPX to reform the Church.  That comes across as spiritual pride.  So they don't want any reunion until Rome has reformed.  In a nutshell, as long as there is a Novus Ordo mess, no reunion.

Now there are PRACTICAL things to consider.  If you set up a structure for the SSPX to operate in, can you successfully insulate it from attacks so that the SSPX can continue ITS MISSION effectively?   This is a common theme of Bishop Fellay, and I respect it.

However, Bishop Fellay brought this on himself.  I remember reading BS on the SSPX site that says Catholics should avoid going to Mass at the FSSP because they might hear a homily preaching how great Voo Pooh was.  I was wondering what world they were living in, an attributed it to ongoing aminosity from the break-up when the FSSP was formed.  Actually, my favorite homilist is an FSSP priest and he is an unapologetic Feeneyite.

So you have two factions, and they will split.  The former will reunite.  The Pope himself already set up the IBP, and they are not allowed to say the N.O., and they can criticize Voo Pooh.  Most FSSP priest openly criticize it already.  So getting something set up for the SSPX is just a matter of getting the details right.  It is doable.  And Bishop Fellay is actively negotiating this now.

The latter faction will go into schism.  There is no preventing it.  Fellay can only minimize the numbers.

I normally agree with most of what you post James, but seems you have overlooked a few things.

1) The NO hates tradition and did whatever it could to make it disappear 50 years ago, after nearly succeeding, the NO can now enjoy being somewhat indifferent - but it still hates all things traditional.
2) The "Olive Branch" that Rome has extended to SSPX is a flaming joke because Rome needs to brandish a mighty sword to the NO, not an Olive Branch to SSPX.
3) The FSSP are only allowed to do so much - folks who think the SSPX will do better than FSSP fool themselves.........reference #1.
4) The Church is really in no better shape these days than they were when the SSPX formed, and they formed primarily because there was no Mass ANYWHERE, it's parody was, and still is - every where instead..........with *VERY FEW* exceptions.
5) SSPX dissuades folks from FSSP, NO, pretty much all churches that are non-SSPX for a specific reason that has nothing whatsoever to do with "sour grapes".
SSPX made a pretty much blanket policy of non-participation with non-SSPX Masses way, way back 30+ years ago - *primarily because* MOST (nearly all?) folks have no idea of the danger that they *may well be* exposing themselves too when they attend a diocesan or some other non-SSPX Mass. For the most part, that "policy" (as I call it) is good for those folks who are newer to the traditional faith and Mass.
6) Until Rome takes the sword to the NO, cleans out all the modernist crooks from Her house, *shows* (proves)  She is no longer Anti-Tradition, does away with the Parody of the Holy Sacrifice and, basically, returns to being Catholic - the SSPX are as right today as they were 45+ years ago.
   
   

THIS.

It is true that SP occurred and other perceived benefits toward Tradition, but I believe that they are a smokescreen to distract those from not seeing what the N.O. really wants to accomplish.  The N.O., in my opinion, is still in phase 1.  I believe that there are two more phases it wants to enact, ending with the finality of the "Universal Church of Man."  All of the groundwork to meet that end has already been carefully laid.  Of course I believe God will halt that plan, but this day it still seems to be making steady progression. 

I think that if this steady progression continues, the "olive branch" that "Rome" has seemed to hand to Tradition will be swiftly broken in half.  I pray that I am wrong concerning such things - I pray that perhaps the Pope is beginning to become more traditional, but I still see the major elements of the disease at play - and those are an unclarified Second Vatican Council and a Protestant rite of Mass.  With those two elements still in play, the N.O. marches onward toward its final goal.

[James02]

4) The Church is really in no better shape these days than they were when the SSPX formed, and they formed primarily because there was no Mass ANYWHERE, it's parody was, and still is - every where instead..........with *VERY FEW* exceptions.

No better?  Back then ABL was busting his butt trying to save a few TLMs.  Now you have them in most Dioceses in the US.  Back then a priest was forbidden to say the Mass, now it is spreading.  Things are still screwed up -- no argument.  But they are a lot better.

5) SSPX dissuades folks from FSSP, NO, pretty much all churches that are non-SSPX for a specific reason that has nothing whatsoever to do with "sour grapes".
SSPX made a pretty much blanket policy of non-participation with non-SSPX Masses way, way back 30+ years ago - *primarily because* MOST (nearly all?) folks have no idea of the danger that they *may well be* exposing themselves too when they attend a diocesan or some other non-SSPX Mass. For the most part, that "policy" (as I call it) is good for those folks who are newer to the traditional faith and Mass.

Paranoid fantasy especially with regard to the FSSP.  I have a major problem with the SSPX preaching a Tibetan can go to heaven without Faith in Jesus Christ.  I sure as heck don't want my family exposed to that.   Never heard that or any modernism at an FSSP Mass.

Anyhow, this thread is drifting, nothing new.  This is supposed to be about mission creep, going from trying to preserve the sacraments to trying to reform the Church, beyond practical matters concerning a personal prelature.  I don't think Bishop Fellay would agree to a set up where criticism of Voo Pooh was not allowed.  I don't see it..

[Stubborn]

Anyhow, this thread is drifting, nothing new.  This is supposed to be about mission creep, going from trying to preserve the sacraments to trying to reform the Church, beyond practical matters concerning a personal prelature.  I don't think Bishop Fellay would agree to a set up where criticism of Voo Pooh was not allowed.  I don't see it..

Rome could care less if the SSPX or FSSP slams V2 or not - that's not the issue at all. The whole issue rests on SSPX accepting V2, it's authority, teachings, mass, theologies etc. ad nausem. *THAT* has not changed in 45 years. *THAT* is what 1000s of clergy did when they sold out 50 years ago that got us into this crisis.

In one sense, SSPX is like St. Thomas More, who was beheaded rather than go along with the divorce of Henry VIII - all he had to do was sign a document as well.

[James02]

I can agree with you on that.  If the SSPX has to accept Voo Pooh, it won't happen.  Fellay won't agree to it either.  But I believe that won't be the case.  If it is the case, then even Bishop Fellay won't accept it.

[Stubborn]

I can agree with you on that.  If the SSPX has to accept Voo Pooh, it won't happen.  Fellay won't agree to it either.  But I believe that won't be the case.  If it is the case, then even Bishop Fellay won't accept it.

But it is the case today as always. Modernists only have V2 as their back stop - they never had and never needed anything else except V2. 

So if Rome ever does abandon the requirement that the SSPX must accept V2, then Rome must also abandon V2 - but to do so Rome would need to also condemn it, if Rome drops the requirement without condemning it, we can all expect that they have something just as bad or worse than V2 up their sleeves.

I dunno, I've seen such terrible injustices befall so many good Catholic people and clergy at the hands of their superiors who all used V2 like an M2 tank to blast to bits everyone and anything that got in their way, that my guess is +Fellay's hopes of any reconciliation with Rome is still, sadly, a very long way off. 

[joe17]

Nic,

  Just a question.  Since you don't accept the NO Missae as a Catholic Mass even as promulgated by Rome, do you accept the authority who has put it into use and maintains it to this day?  I don't want a discussion, just a yes or no as to whether you see Paul VI and successors as popes or not? 

  Joe