The Devil made me do it.....

[Scriptorium]

Alaric,
God has created man to live in a moral universe. Our lives are about being placed in a test, freely acting within the test, and dispensing justice and mercy according to each person's acts. We all can see that we prefer human love through free will over a mechanistic "love". The greatest love is one which is given freely. God delights in man freely choosing Him, and that is what heaven is, the just delight of men who love God. The belief comes in because we cannot understand God completely. Even when we are in heaven beholding the face of God, we will not understand Him completely. We are mixed beings. Our nature is not pure like God's. We are mixed with "what could be". God just IS. As for evil, evil is a privation. It is a defect in what is good and perfect. A possession of an individual is evil, but the will has not been offended. Either that person invited it in some way, or God has allowed a demon to possess the person for a good which we cannot understand fully. It may be for that person's purification, like a dark night of the soul, or it may be that God is making them into a sacrifice for another soul. Some people call them victim souls. There are many aspects of faith in our religion, but it is not against our reason. It may be above our reason and understanding, but it isn't illogical. Even human analogy makes sense. If our child had a sharp object in its mouth, you would immediately swipe the thing from its mouth, lest it swallow it. You may draw blood in the act, but ultimately you save the child. So sometimes a short term evil is allowed by God that a soul, or many souls, may be drawn to Him in a closer way. Likewise we may have a child that resists us utterly. And we will not strap them to the bed, or whip them into prayer, or brainwash them into obedience. We may have to let them go to meet a sad fate. All the while we may be ready with open arms to welcome them back, if they wanted that love. And finally we may have most beautiful children that wish to give every sacrifice for us, and it may well be that they are spent in love. The moral is that every good is rewarded, and every ill is punished, and God is just in His judgement, and most merciful in His love. None go to hell who do not wish to be far from the love of God. And heaven is filled with God's friends. Our religion is one of faith, but reason clearly shows that our beliefs are founded on sound principles. I wish you well. Merry Christmas!

[INPEFESS]

Why would a most holy and righteous God "allow" evil to befall his children at all? To bring about a "greater good"?

This really goes against rational thinking at the end of the day.

Why (if I could) would I allow some demon to run hog wild on one of my children just to prove a point?

That's about as sick as it gets.

I'm not getting all this, I guess the skeptic in me forces me to find the answers to all this.

I would love to hear some clarification.

A mother loves her child very much. She takes care of it. She feeds it, clothes it, provides for it, protects it--in a word, she gives herself to it. But the child does not seem to reciprocate. Because of the child's relationship to the mother, it takes these things for granted. Despite the fact that the mother desires more than anything to be loved by the child, the child, not appreciating its mother's love, does not return that love.

Every so often, the child disobeys its mother and begins to perform some action that will put itself in danger. The mother, wanting to protect her child, prevents the child from placing itself in any sort of danger, even going so far as to forcefully restrain the child. But the child does not seem to understand or appreciate the mother's protection.

One day, the mother decides not to forcefully restrain the child the next time it disobeys her. Once again, the child disobeys her warning, strays from its mother, and places itself in danger. The helpless child can't save itself and is now in fear for its life, so it begs and cries for its mother. Finally, just before its too late, the mother rescues the child from its own misfortune. The child, now safe from danger, clings more tightly to its mother than ever before and doesn't stray any more because the mother has proved her unconditional love for her child, even going to so far as to place herself in danger to save its life.

Now, the child understands its mother. Now, it finally returns her love.

[INPEFESS]

You gave me a lot of answers but none of the question I asked.

Why would it be necessary for God to let a demon torture one of his children in order to "bring a greater good"?

I'm sure Jesus is his greatest example of this. But why is bloodletting necessary for any kind of redemption?

And if Satan and his cohorts are truly the epitome of all things holy, pray tell why God allow these things anywhere near the members of his body?

I thought the "gates of hell" would never prevail anywhere in the presence of Christ. (The Church)

As for those lines crossed out in your post.....well maybe the evil one doesn't want me reading your answers. 

Sorry I did not answer your question.
Men chose evil over good of their own free will which God does not interfere with.
We know this from all creation and the Fall.
Christ does not make the person become possessd, but rather the person wills it.
God permits this horrible evil, to make the person convert to the Catholic Faith or become a better Catholic.
Why did God permit 9/11?
Why did God permit WWI and II
Why does God permit the greatest of all evils, worse than any possession, namely the slaughter of 100's of millions through the murder of abortion?

Christ sais The Gates of Hell would not prevail, meaning the Church as a whole will never fall to Satan, this does not mean that individual members of the Church cannot fall.
Also, remember that many who become possessed are not Catholic, and they do not have the grace filled protection of the sacraments.

Well permitting evil is one thing but how do you explain things like God "hardening" Pharaohs heart just when the ol boy was going to let the Hebes of the hook in Egypt?

Pharaoh hardened his own heart by his own rejection of the grace God offered him. God simply permitted this to happen by failing to intervene. In this way, Scripture says that God hardened his heart. He allowed this because there would have been no cause for Him to show His power through the beautiful miracles that He performed as a consequence of Pharaoh's hardening of his own heart. Those miracles proved the glory of God and converted many. This would not have happened if God had not permitted Pharaoh to harden his own heart.

And what about Satan entering poor Judas so he made sure he cut the deal selling him out the Pharisees.

God did not force Judas to become possessed against Judas' will. Possession is usually the result of persistance in a state of mortal sin. Hence, it is likely that Judas consented to possession by his own free rejection of God's grace. God simply used this rejection to bring out the redemption and to fulfill the prophecies.

[51] And behold one of them that were with Jesus, stretching forth his hand, drew out his sword: and striking the servant of the high priest, cut off his ear. [52] Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. [53] Thinkest thou that I cannot ask my Father, and he will give me presently more than twelve legions of angels? [54] How then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that so it must be done?

God didn't force them to take His Son. He simply permitted them to do what He knew they would do from all eternity. He offered them the grace to resist so that resistance was genuinely possible. But rather than stretching forth His hand to deliver them from their own evil via extraordinary means, he allowed them to succumb to their own wickedness; for God's goodness is shown through both His justice and His mercy, not only His justice and not only His mercy.

Remember that love is always desirous to express and communicate itself. By this simple act of God's all-wise permissive will, the salvation of many was effected and He proved His love for mankind in a way that humanity never imagined possible.

[alaric]

Asking questions isn't evil, but Satan very much wants us to doubt to the point of abandoning the faith. There are certain things we accept on faith and can't question. One of them is that God is all good. As I said many theologians have tackled the problem of evil, so it isn't necessarily a bad thing to think about.  But you should ask if you are in the right state of mind to look at this problem as well as if you have the needed theological background.

It is horrible that so many priests have disgraced their office. The priest that baptized me and gave me some of my first religious training as a child turned out to be a pedophile (fortunately I was never left alone with him). Sadly there have been many such priests in the history of the church.  However, most priests are not pedophiles. That said all priests are sinners. If you expect a priest to be a superhero you will be dissapointed. Despite this priests are with traditional training are going to understand the faith better than you and will be able to help your faith grow better than anyone. Many saints have said it can be very humbling to confess to a priest that one knows is a great sinner (although I don't think they had child molesters in mind).

Anyway, it is a hard time for the Church. It always has. Though the church is served by imperfect men it is guided by the Holy Spirit. Don't forget that.

Right state of mind? What is that? If you should know I'm sober and clear thinking at present with no real present dramas in my life at present.

For what it's worth I've been asking these questions for years with no real hard answers only that I must accept on "faith" the way things are.

God as far as I believe should not be a God of confusion things should be more black and white . And if his children serve and are loyal to him he should not allow evil to enter their lives not forcibly at least. And he damn sure shouldn't allow demons to torture his most trusted followers in order to "bring a greater good".

Besides is that written anywhere as it has to come about? The only way things get better is through pain and torment? It all sounds sadistic to me.

As a side not to your priest problem I had exactly the opposite. My parish priest when  i was a kid was a hardnosed traditional tough old bastard who clung to the old ways and despised the modernist nuns and clerics who were running amok just when V 2 really began to take effect when I was in elementary school. This guy beat my ass more than once but I was wild like many of us were in them days. As I got older I came to respect him for being the disciplinarian he was and how he despised the new wave of lovey-dovey , liberal, lesbo modernist nuns that began to pollute the hallways of the former catholic schools now defunct. I think he realised just where things were going with the NO and all that.

Then he got caught up exposing a queer ring of priests implicating the bishop himself and wound up conveniently dead before all this became too public.

Now I see one orthodox priest after another being taken down by the homos in the Church a church that should be immune to such attacks, especially from a bunch of queers with collars.

Not so I guess. So something to me is very wrong here and the questions will keep coming

[alaric]

Well permitting evil is one thing but how do you explain things like God "hardening" Pharaohs heart just when the ol boy was going to let the Hebes of the hook in Egypt?

Pharaoh was a pagan.  Who knows all the sick things he did.  He certainly was treating the Jews poorly.  If God had instead struck him down with lightning, would you protest?  So God used him, an evil pagan, for His plan.  Nowhere does it say Pharaoh suffered more in hell for what he did AFTER God hardened his heart.

As far as the possessed, I have read that sins they commit while possessed are not culpable to them.  And most cases of possession involve getting involved with spells and crap. 

And we have God wiping out the Caananites, even women and children.  Of course they were busy throwing their babies into the furnaces of Moloch:

And whilst they were diminished for a manifest reproof of their murdering the infants, thou gavest to thine abundant water unlooked for: [9] shewing by the thirst that was then, how thou didst exalt thine, and didst kill their adversaries.

But the children and women are now in eternity.  Those children killed are better off in Limbo, then if they had lived and ended up in hell.  In the end we will understand the Justice and Mercy of God.

Well you certainly don't so how can you judge him? How do we know that he wasn't an honorable man and leader? All we know is what Scripture tells us and it's very vague to be honest with you.And why do you believe all pagans were "evil" who should be used as chattel in order to prove a point? We really don't know for sure what the situation was in Egypt at that time and the Jews are always depicted as innocent victims as usual just like today. Besides, they weren't even called Jews yet at that time. They were referred to as Hebrews or "Children of Israel", the term "Jews" didn't surface to much later when they formed the Kingdom of Israel. Everyone has the hollywood depiction from the Ten Commandments that those slaves were the same people as Maury and Irving your Jewish neighbors down the block, there's absolutely no proof of that.

And why are all pagans considered "evil"? Hell everyone on earth  except for a microscopic Hebrew tribe was a pagan at that time. 99 percent of the planet probably never even heard of Yahweh or Israel did that make them all "evil"? Don't forget Abraham was an evil pagan before God called him out of Iraq to serve him. We all can't assume that all these people had a evil nature simply for the fact that they were pagan. If anything the Israelites were evil simply for the fact that they seen the power and miracles of Yahweh and they still rose in rebellion against his priests and prophets.

I think we shouldn't be so hard on Pharaoh if he was indeed used as a tool to squash the Hebrews in order to show the power and majesty of Almighty God.

Of course I'm still spitballing here, I'm not saying this was definitely the case.

[alaric]

Alaric,
God has created man to live in a moral universe. Our lives are about being placed in a test, freely acting within the test, and dispensing justice and mercy according to each person's acts. We all can see that we prefer human love through free will over a mechanistic "love". The greatest love is one which is given freely. God delights in man freely choosing Him, and that is what heaven is, the just delight of men who love God. The belief comes in because we cannot understand God completely. Even when we are in heaven beholding the face of God, we will not understand Him completely. We are mixed beings. Our nature is not pure like God's. We are mixed with "what could be". God just IS. As for evil, evil is a privation. It is a defect in what is good and perfect. A possession of an individual is evil, but the will has not been offended. Either that person invited it in some way, or God has allowed a demon to possess the person for a good which we cannot understand fully. It may be for that person's purification, like a dark night of the soul, or it may be that God is making them into a sacrifice for another soul. Some people call them victim souls. There are many aspects of faith in our religion, but it is not against our reason. It may be above our reason and understanding, but it isn't illogical. Even human analogy makes sense. If our child had a sharp object in its mouth, you would immediately swipe the thing from its mouth, lest it swallow it. You may draw blood in the act, but ultimately you save the child. So sometimes a short term evil is allowed by God that a soul, or many souls, may be drawn to Him in a closer way. Likewise we may have a child that resists us utterly. And we will not strap them to the bed, or whip them into prayer, or brainwash them into obedience. We may have to let them go to meet a sad fate. All the while we may be ready with open arms to welcome them back, if they wanted that love. And finally we may have most beautiful children that wish to give every sacrifice for us, and it may well be that they are spent in love. The moral is that every good is rewarded, and every ill is punished, and God is just in His judgement, and most merciful in His love. None go to hell who do not wish to be far from the love of God. And heaven is filled with God's friends. Our religion is one of faith, but reason clearly shows that our beliefs are founded on sound principles. I wish you well. Merry Christmas!

Thank you Scriptorium I understand all this.

God expects blind faith and obedience which I get.

Is it  asking a little too much expect a little protection and not have to be tormented  by devils in return in order to "bring a greater good"?

I do not wish to go to hell, but that's right where I'm heading for critically thinking I guess.

May God forgive me.

Merry Christmas to you too.

[alaric]

Why would a most holy and righteous God "allow" evil to befall his children at all? To bring about a "greater good"?

This really goes against rational thinking at the end of the day.

Why (if I could) would I allow some demon to run hog wild on one of my children just to prove a point?

That's about as sick as it gets.

I'm not getting all this, I guess the skeptic in me forces me to find the answers to all this.

I would love to hear some clarification.

A mother loves her child very much. She takes care of it. She feeds it, clothes it, provides for it, protects it--in a word, she gives herself to it. But the child does not seem to reciprocate. Because of the child's relationship to the mother, it takes these things for granted. Despite the fact that the mother desires more than anything to be loved by the child, the child, not appreciating its mother's love, does not return that love.

Every so often, the child disobeys its mother and begins to perform some action that will put itself in danger. The mother, wanting to protect her child, prevents the child from placing itself in any sort of danger, even going so far as to forcefully restrain the child. But the child does not seem to understand or appreciate the mother's protection.

One day, the mother decides not to forcefully restrain the child the next time it disobeys her. Once again, the child disobeys her warning, strays from its mother, and places itself in danger. The helpless child can't save itself and is now in fear for its life, so it begs and cries for its mother. Finally, just before its too late, the mother rescues the child from its own misfortune. The child, now safe from danger, clings more tightly to its mother than ever before and doesn't stray any more because the mother has proved her unconditional love for her child, even going to so far as to place herself in danger to save its life.

Now, the child understands its mother. Now, it finally returns her love.

How but a mother who allows her child to be burned even though he is obeying her will in order to prove a point.

Get back to me on that one.

[Someone1776]

Alaric, this line of questioning in this tone is not good for your soul.  You are talking about God as He was just some other imperfect human leader. God is the sole reason for your existence. Show Him some humility and respect. We can't fully understand God, but we can rest assured that he is all good.

The difference between us and God is probably similar to the difference between us and dog. Most dogs hate getting bathed and can't possibly comprehend why their masters find bathing them is important. In their minds their masters are probably just being sadistic. Similarly we can't comprehend fully the ways of God.  Just because we don't understand Him does not mean He is not all good.

[Crusading Philologist]

I would be careful about saying that God allows evil in order to bring about a "greater good." From a Christian point of view, evil is essentially meaningless and nonexistent--it is only a privation of the good and has no real existence of its own. Consequently, we cannot say that evil comes from God, Who is the source of all being as well as Being Itself. Evil really occurs because we live in a fallen world that is for now partly given over to evil spirits, and this happened as a result of our own free will. So, Christianity doesn't tell us that the existence of evil is all OK because it will work out for some greater good in the end. Instead, it promises us a future in which evil is finally defeated and true justice and charity are restored.

Here's a good essay by the Orthodox theologian David Bentley Hart on the subject: http://www.firstthings.com/article/2007/01/tsunami-and-theodicy--27

[alaric]

Alaric, this line of questioning in this tone is not good for your soul.  You are talking about God as He was just some other imperfect human leader. God is the sole reason for your existence. Show Him some humility and respect.[/color] We can't fully understand God, but we can rest assured that he is all good.

The difference between us and God is probably similar to the difference between us and dog. Most dogs hate getting bathed and can't possibly comprehend why their masters find bathing them is important. In their minds their masters are probably just being sadistic. Similarly we can't comprehend fully the ways of God.  Just because we don't understand Him does not mean He is not all good.

Actually it is more what man says about God.

I have not said anything that isn't in scripture about how God has dealt with man or the devil using and abusing humans at will.

But let's remember all that is good comes from God. Evil on the other hand comes from somewhere.

I believe it says in the bible about Satan that "iniquity was found in his heart".

Now Lucifer was God's highest creation at the time, how could he possibly have "iniquity" inside him when he was in the presence of God himself?

I know it comes down to pride or hubris itself. Lucifer began to become proud and thought of rising his position above the Almighty himself.

This was probably the first sin. One thing's for sure, the Devil didn't make himself do it or did he? I guess in the end he did.