The Devil made me do it.....

[Old Salt]

I would be careful about saying that God allows evil in order to bring about a "greater good." From a Christian point of view, evil is essentially meaningless and nonexistent--it is only a privation of the good and has no real existence of its own. Consequently, we cannot say that evil comes from God, Who is the source of all being as well as Being Itself. Evil really occurs because we live in a fallen world that is for now partly given over to evil spirits, and this happened as a result of our own free will. So, Christianity doesn't tell us that the existence of evil is all OK because it will work out for some greater good in the end. Instead, it promises us a future in which evil is finally defeated and true justice and charity are restored.

Here's a good essay by the Orthodox theologian David Bentley Hart on the subject: http://www.firstthings.com/article/2007/01/tsunami-and-theodicy--27

Evil never comes from God,
He has control over everything always, so he could forbid any evil from ocuring and it would not happen.
But God permits certain evils to happen.
Because they occur.

[Someone1776]

One thing's for sure, the Devil didn't make himself do it or did he? I guess in the end he did.

He did.

Something else to keep in mind is that the Old Testament, particularly the Psalms and the Book of Job are constantly asking why does God permit evil to fall upon the good.  Those questions were basically made moot when Christ made his sacrifice at Calvary.  We shouldn't be asking why God has not made our lives easier, but rather why do we continue to sin after Christ has paid the ultimate sacrifice for us.  

[Crusading Philologist]

I would be careful about saying that God allows evil in order to bring about a "greater good." From a Christian point of view, evil is essentially meaningless and nonexistent--it is only a privation of the good and has no real existence of its own. Consequently, we cannot say that evil comes from God, Who is the source of all being as well as Being Itself. Evil really occurs because we live in a fallen world that is for now partly given over to evil spirits, and this happened as a result of our own free will. So, Christianity doesn't tell us that the existence of evil is all OK because it will work out for some greater good in the end. Instead, it promises us a future in which evil is finally defeated and true justice and charity are restored.

Here's a good essay by the Orthodox theologian David Bentley Hart on the subject: http://www.firstthings.com/article/2007/01/tsunami-and-theodicy--27

Evil never comes from God,
He has control over everything always, so he could forbid any evil from ocuring and it would not happen.
But God permits certain evils to happen.
Because they occur.

God permits evil to occur, but that doesn't mean that he allows it to happen because there is some greater good in it.

[Stubborn]

Alaric, this line of questioning in this tone is not good for your soul.  You are talking about God as He was just some other imperfect human leader. God is the sole reason for your existence. Show Him some humility and respect.[/color] We can't fully understand God, but we can rest assured that he is all good.

The difference between us and God is probably similar to the difference between us and dog. Most dogs hate getting bathed and can't possibly comprehend why their masters find bathing them is important. In their minds their masters are probably just being sadistic. Similarly we can't comprehend fully the ways of God.  Just because we don't understand Him does not mean He is not all good.

Actually it is more what man says about God.

I have not said anything that isn't in scripture about how God has dealt with man or the devil using and abusing humans at will.

But let's remember all that is good comes from God. Evil on the other hand comes from somewhere.

I believe it says in the bible about Satan that "iniquity was found in his heart".

Now Lucifer was God's highest creation at the time, how could he possibly have "iniquity" inside him when he was in the presence of God himself?

I know it comes down to pride or hubris itself. Lucifer began to become proud and thought of rising his position above the Almighty himself.

This was probably the first sin. One thing's for sure, the Devil didn't make himself do it or did he? I guess in the end he did.

Actually, yes, he did make himself do it. Pride blinds, it blinded Lucifer even while he was in the presence of God.

Whats even worse is that Lucifer and the angels  ....were enabled to see eternal reward and eternal punishment, the perdition of Lucifer and of those that would follow him. His Majesty showed them hell and its pains. They saw it
all ; for, by virtue of their superior and excellent nature, they understood the essence of other more qualified
and limited creatures; so that, before falling from grace, they were clearly aware of the place of their chastisement. -  The Mystical City of God (Book Online)vol. 1

Click on the link and check out vol 1, a long time ago it helped answer questions I only thought I had as regards some of the questions you're raising here.

[Old Salt]

I would be careful about saying that God allows evil in order to bring about a "greater good." From a Christian point of view, evil is essentially meaningless and nonexistent--it is only a privation of the good and has no real existence of its own. Consequently, we cannot say that evil comes from God, Who is the source of all being as well as Being Itself. Evil really occurs because we live in a fallen world that is for now partly given over to evil spirits, and this happened as a result of our own free will. So, Christianity doesn't tell us that the existence of evil is all OK because it will work out for some greater good in the end. Instead, it promises us a future in which evil is finally defeated and true justice and charity are restored.

Here's a good essay by the Orthodox theologian David Bentley Hart on the subject: http://www.firstthings.com/article/2007/01/tsunami-and-theodicy--27

Evil never comes from God,
He has control over everything always, so he could forbid any evil from ocuring and it would not happen.
But God permits certain evils to happen.
Because they occur.

God permits evil to occur, but that doesn't mean that he allows it to happen because there is some greater good in it.

Knowing that God does not allow or do anything to happen for no reason, do you not believe that in His permissive Will he brings good out of bad?
Look at the worst evil ever: Deicide, the Cross.
It was not brought on by God but through evil men and God brought the greatest good from it, ever.

[Old Salt]

From Aquinas Summa:

"Reply to Objection 3. A double capability may be remarked in human nature: one, in respect of the order of natural power, and this is always fulfilled by God, Who apportions to each according to its natural capability; the other in respect to the order of the Divine power, which all creatures implicitly obey; and the capability we speak of pertains to this. But God does not fulfil all such capabilities, otherwise God could do only what He has done in creatures, and this is false, as stated above (I, 105, 6). But there is no reason why human nature should not have been raised to something greater after sin. For God allows evils to happen in order to bring a greater good therefrom; hence it is written (Romans 5:20): "Where sin abounded, grace did more abound." Hence, too, in the blessing of the Paschal candle, we say: "O happy fault, that merited such and so great a Redeemer!"

God does permit evil to bring a greater good.

[Old Salt]

(Romans 5:20): "Where sin abounded, grace did more abound."

[Crusading Philologist]

Well, there you are getting into questions about the nature of redemption and the Incarnation, but even the fact that God works good out of evil does not mean that God allows evil to happen so that some good might result. Instead, I think it merely means that God's plans overcome all obstacles and can even make use of those obstacles. Still, the prevalence of evil in the world is a direct result of Adam's, and our, failure to honor God. This failure meant that we gave ourselves over to death and the devil. Fortunately, God has paid our debt for us through the Incarnation, and so evil will one day be defeated. However, evil is still the result of the abuse of free will on the part of creatures, and, even if God uses this for his own ends, it does not mean that God needed to use evil in order to enact his will.

[Old Salt]

"For God allows evils to happen in order to bring a greater good therefrom; "

Aquinas believes that God allows [permits] evil to bring a greater good.

[Scriptorium]

Thank you Scriptorium I understand all this.

God expects blind faith and obedience which I get.

Is it  asking a little too much expect a little protection and not have to be tormented  by devils in return in order to "bring a greater good"?

I do not wish to go to hell, but that's right where I'm heading for critically thinking I guess.

May God forgive me.

Merry Christmas to you too.

Alaric, please reread my post because you don't understand. I did not say that God expects blind faith. He accepts blind faith, but he doesn't require it. The faith I recommended to you is an informed faith, but it is still faith. We have knowledge which is based on things we see, and we can reasonably extend that to things we cannot see. Since we don't even know the intentions of our neighbor, but can read them through the material world, it is likewise with God. If you wish to know Him and His ways more clearer, then go further into prayer, reading, meditation, contemplation, and sacrifice. So I neither recommended blind faith to you, nor said he requires it of you. Please continue your inquiry, but also please temper it with prayer and (informed) trust.

And as for being tormented by devils, let's take this away from devils for a moment. How does any man truly progress in life? Through challenge. One is challenged and one rises to meet it. Whether it is lifting weights, becoming a doctor, or scaling the heights of sanctity, there is no real progress without challenge. And while we may gripe about the challenge, what is it but an "evil" to make a better good. This is the law of the universe, and every religion, doctrine, science, school, etc. is based on this essential law. The challenge can take any form, but what is the answer -- meeting it. So whether it is a devil tormenting someone, a feeling of abandonment, a lack on consolation, resistance from other people, a bad priest, etc., the hard fact is that that is meant for your purification, like gold having its dross burned away. I nor God can make you meet that challenge in your life, but if you want the world to be a better place, it starts right here right now with you, and I, and us. Hell is for those who want the dross, want the failure, want the deprivation of goodness. You being challenged in faith is not going to hell. See it for what it is, the challenge which can help you build your spiritual muscles.

If you're just feeling down, then take a moment to reflect on the good of the world and people. A small sign of charity, a good word, a love without condition. Mustard seeds abound in our world.