SouthpawLink
PedisaustralisNexus
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« Reply #240 on: January 14, 2012, 01:56:PM » |
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Using one's intellect and education to set oneself up against the Magisterium, is an abuse of the gifts that God has given one. "The Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter that by His revelation they might disclose new doctrine, but that by His help they might guard sacredly the revelation transmitted through the apostles and the deposit of faith, and might faithfully set it forth" ( First Vatican Council, Sess. IV, ch. 4: Denz. 1836). We believe that new doctrine is being set forth and we also believe that we are aligning ourselves with the Magisterium, the perennial Magisterium. Clearly, this Magisterium is not faithfully setting forth revelation, otherwise there wouldn't be the need for repeated clarifications, clarifications which are themselves restatements rather than actual explanations of what has been taught. The Magisterium says that it is not setting forth new doctrine and its teaching must be understood in light of Tradition. Clearly, you are refusing to listen to it. Mysterium Ecclesiae refers back to Vatican II. Some Aspects of the Church... refers back to Vatican II. Note on the Expression "Sister Churches" refers back to Vatican II. Dominus Iesus refers back to Vatican II. Responses to Some Questions... refers back to Vatican II. A precise explanation differentiating the Catholic Church, which is the Church of Christ, from the Eastern schismatic churches is severely wanting, and on the contrary, numerous statements are given as to how and in what way the Churches are in communion with one another. Under Pope Pius IX, they were completely separated; under Pope John Paul II, they are joined together (DI, 17: "united by means of the closest bonds") like two bones connected by ligaments.
The older formulation of ecclesiology is basically a binary system. It works in terms of Church/not Church. The newer formulation of ecclesiology is a more complex system that can make distinctions among varying degrees of closeness to the Church. You keep treating it like a binary system so it does not make sense to you. The more complex system assumes the truth of the simpler one. As I explained in the other thread, it is like the relationship of vector geometry to arithmetic. Jayne, I am convinced that the CDF has breached the binary system by specifically calling the Eastern Orthodox "true particular Churches" in "imperfect communion" with the Catholic Church (and by stating that they "build up the Church of God" whenever they have Divine Liturgy), but I will not pursue this issue any further (as I've just stated in the other thread). I am going to take a break from discussing Catholic ecclesiology for a while. Not to challenge you, but your post brought this passage to mind: "Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding [can. 3]. 'Therefore . . . let the understanding, the knowledge, and wisdom of individuals as of all, of one man as of the whole Church, grow and progress strongly with the passage of the ages and the centuries; but let it be solely in its own genus, namely in the same dogma, with the same sense and the same understanding''' ( First Vatican Council, Sess. III, ch. 4: Denz. 1800.). It seems as though the Church's doctrine concerning her nature and constitution has been turned on its head, with the Church herself explaining "what is clear by means of what is obscure" ( Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis, n. 21). "Indeed, the very opposite procedure must be used." |
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« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 02:10:PM by SouthpawLink »
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"It preaches that not only in civil affairs, which is not Our concern here, but also in religion, God has given every individual a wide freedom to embrace and adopt without danger to his salvation whatever sect or opinion appeals to him on the basis of his private judgment. The apostle Paul warns us against the impiety of these madmen" (Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum, n. 12).
"Likewise, peace is rooted in respect for religious freedom, which is a fundamental and primordial aspect of the freedom of conscience of individuals and of the freedom of peoples. It is important that everywhere in the world every person can belong to the religion of his choice and practise it freely without fear" (Pope Benedict XVI, Address to Five New Ambassadors, 18 May 2006).
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JMartyr
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« Reply #241 on: January 14, 2012, 02:45:PM » |
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This encyclical is too long for me to read it  , but John Salza says" in fact, Pope John Paul II warned us to discern the fruits of Vatican II from those which come from “the prince of this world” – the devil (Dominum et vivificantem, 1986). This is an incredible disclaimer for an ecumenical council, unlike anything we have ever seen from previous popes." |
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" When I think that we are in the building of the Holy Office, the outstanding witness of Tradition and defender of the Catholic Faith, I cannot help thinking that I am on my own territory and that it is I whom you call ' the traditionalist' who should be judging you." - quote from Archbishop Lefebvre when questioned by the CDF
"Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and Bishop Antonio de Castro Mayer are the two great saints of the modern Church. Once this catastrophe ends they will be instantly canonized." - Father Malachi Martin
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Someone1776
"The Derailer"
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« Reply #242 on: January 14, 2012, 04:25:PM » |
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This encyclical is too long for me to read it , but John Salza says" in fact, Pope John Paul II warned us to discern the fruits of Vatican II from those which come from “the prince of this world” – the devil (Dominum et vivificantem, 1986). This is an incredible disclaimer for an ecumenical council, unlike anything we have ever seen from previous popes." Satan often tries to take that which is good and turn it to evil ends. Mel Gibson's Passion did an excellent job showing this by portraying Satan as a twisted parody of the Madonna. Martin Luther was no doubt also attacked heavily by Satan so that his good critiques of abuses in the Church pushed him to question the whole structure of the Church. I once heard a priest say that it is a gift from God to be able to see abuse and problems within the Church when so many don't, but it is these people with this gift that Satan attacks hardest because he realizes what a danger they are. And, he attacks them with by using their own gift against them by trying to make them see the problems of the Church as proof that the Church is evil. In addition, I do have to wonder why John Paul II was warning that people were using Vatican II to push evil...if he was supposedly one of those people? |
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« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 04:48:PM by Someone1776 »
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"Christianity lies in achieving greatness in the face of the world's hatred." - Saint Ignatius of Antioch
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Tim
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« Reply #243 on: January 14, 2012, 04:41:PM » |
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You all realize had there been no Vatican II, this type of discussion wold never have happened. No one would have had the courage to discuss theae topics outside of clerics, and they'd have never allowed us the chance. fisheaters would be about how to say the rosary and othe non-controversial subjects, but a Pope and Pope would only be prayed for. Just mentioning that.
tim
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Vetus Ordo
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« Reply #244 on: January 14, 2012, 04:51:PM » |
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You all realize had there been no Vatican II, this type of discussion wold never have happened. No one would have had the courage to discuss theae topics outside of clerics, and they'd have never allowed us the chance. fisheaters would be about how to say the rosary and othe non-controversial subjects, but a Pope and Pope would only be prayed for. Just mentioning that.
This is true. Fisheaters, and other similar sites, would probably be on the Index. The truth is that whatever the position you hold concerning the crisis, real traditional Catholicism has become a utopia. |
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"THE LORD is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the protector of my life: of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalm 26:1)
"And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." — Clement, bishop of Rome
"I love truth," says he, "and not sects. I am sometimes a peripatetic, a stoic, or an academician, and often none of them; but—always a Christian. To philosophise is to love wisdom; and the true wisdom is Jesus Christ. Let us read the historians, the poets, and the philosophers; but let us have in our hearts the gospel of Jesus Christ, in which alone is perfect wisdom and perfect happiness." — Petrarch
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Someone1776
"The Derailer"
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« Reply #245 on: January 14, 2012, 05:02:PM » |
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You all realize had there been no Vatican II, this type of discussion wold never have happened. No one would have had the courage to discuss theae topics outside of clerics, and they'd have never allowed us the chance. fisheaters would be about how to say the rosary and othe non-controversial subjects, but a Pope and Pope would only be prayed for. Just mentioning that.
This is true. Fisheaters, and other similar sites, would probably be on the Index. The truth is that whatever the position you hold concerning the crisis, real traditional Catholicism has become a utopia. I am confused here. Are you saying that true traditional Catholicism has been strengthened as the autocratic nature of the hierarchy declined? |
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« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 05:04:PM by Someone1776 »
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"Christianity lies in achieving greatness in the face of the world's hatred." - Saint Ignatius of Antioch
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Tim
Gold Fish
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« Reply #246 on: January 14, 2012, 05:03:PM » |
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Your use of utopia is very strog charge. Utopians deny Original Sin and by extension the need for Christ's Passion and Death for our Redemption.
tim
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newyorkcatholic
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terrena despicere
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« Reply #247 on: January 14, 2012, 05:07:PM » |
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When Vetus wrote "utopia" I read "a perfect place that doesn't really exist."
Traditional catholicism is a beautiful idea but cannot fully exist as we'd like, because you either embrace the faith of old and clash with your bishop, pastors, the pope's writings, etc, or you are obedient but clash with the faith of old.
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One human thought alone is worth more than the entire world, hence God alone is worthy of it. -- St. John of the Cross
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Vetus Ordo
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« Reply #248 on: January 14, 2012, 05:39:PM » |
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When Vetus wrote "utopia" I read "a perfect place that doesn't really exist."
Traditional catholicism is a beautiful idea but cannot fully exist as we'd like, because you either embrace the faith of old and clash with your bishop, pastors, the pope's writings, etc, or you are obedient but clash with the faith of old. Exactly. If there's anything this crisis has taught us is to rely on our own private judgement, much more than we're willing to admit. Everybody on both sides of the fence has become "protestantised" at some level, and I don't say this in a pejorative way. Whatever you happen to believe concerning this crisis, the hard truth remains that true traditional Catholicism as understood and practiced by the Church prior to Vatican II has effectively ceased to exist unless you accept the apocalyptic scenarios envisioned by sedevacantists or hardline sspxers. |
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"THE LORD is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the protector of my life: of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalm 26:1)
"And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." — Clement, bishop of Rome
"I love truth," says he, "and not sects. I am sometimes a peripatetic, a stoic, or an academician, and often none of them; but—always a Christian. To philosophise is to love wisdom; and the true wisdom is Jesus Christ. Let us read the historians, the poets, and the philosophers; but let us have in our hearts the gospel of Jesus Christ, in which alone is perfect wisdom and perfect happiness." — Petrarch
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Lavalliere
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« Reply #249 on: January 14, 2012, 05:42:PM » |
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When Vetus wrote "utopia" I read "a perfect place that doesn't really exist."
Traditional catholicism is a beautiful idea but cannot fully exist as we'd like, because you either embrace the faith of old and clash with your bishop, pastors, the pope's writings, etc, or you are obedient but clash with the faith of old.
Leave it to a New Yorker to sum it all up!  I agree. |
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