MARIJUANA

[Old Salt]

I found even "moderate" use[ 1 joint a day of mild sensomelia] made my mind odd and sad.

Then it's clearly not moderate use.

That, or you're a lightweight.  There are lightweights with alcohol, we don't judge the legality of all alcohol because of it's effects on lightweights.

I am not a lightweight, I used to smoke 4-6 splifs at one time, be that as it may, my point is that perhaps MJ is and should be illegal because its effects on the mind as very different and I think more harmful than alcohol
I am just saying.

[LoneWolfRadTrad]

I found even "moderate" use[ 1 joint a day of mild sensomelia] made my mind odd and sad.

Then it's clearly not moderate use.

That, or you're a lightweight.  There are lightweights with alcohol, we don't judge the legality of all alcohol because of it's effects on lightweights.

I am not a lightweight, I used to smoke 4-6 splifs at one time, be that as it may, my point is that perhaps MJ is and should be illegal because its effects on the mind as very different and I think more harmful than alcohol
I am just saying.

Though, we have medications that are much more dangerous you could say the same about.  How many times have we heard of a medication for treating depression actually causing depression?  Too often.

I think we can say it varies from person to person.  To every rule we have norms and exceptions, do we really base rules on exceptions?  No, that's why they're exceptions.

[Old Salt]

I found even "moderate" use[ 1 joint a day of mild sensomelia] made my mind odd and sad.

Then it's clearly not moderate use.

That, or you're a lightweight.  There are lightweights with alcohol, we don't judge the legality of all alcohol because of it's effects on lightweights.

I am not a lightweight, I used to smoke 4-6 splifs at one time, be that as it may, my point is that perhaps MJ is and should be illegal because its effects on the mind as very different and I think more harmful than alcohol
I am just saying.

Though, we have medications that are much more dangerous you could say the same about.  How many times have we heard of a medication for treating depression actually causing depression?  Too often.

I think we can say it varies from person to person.  To every rule we have norms and exceptions, do we really base rules on exceptions?  No, that's why they're exceptions.

But meds are usually presribed by doctors not sold over the counter.
I have no problem with prescription cannibis, only there should be serious consideration when making it legal to just purchase at the local 7-11 with a dish of cheese nachos..

[Scriptorium]

I think it should be decriminalized and regulated like other products. The plain fact is that it is everywhere, and so why not bring it above board and regulate it, instead of everyone trying to hide it, and getting it mixed in with other hard drugs. As for sin, it depends how it is used. I do think it is ultimately detrimental for the holy life the way it is used. Perhaps if it was legalized, there would be more moderation, but I doubt it in most cases. The nature of a hallucinogen is to "get the high". Just like alcohol, you are going to have less discernment with your thoughts, and from this less awareness of your intentions. You'll also be more attached to sensuality. This is in the opposite direction of drawing closer to Christ. My thought is that a serious Catholic would have already "graduated" from marijuana. You can relatively easily recreate the experience through breath meditation without the adverse side-effects, nor the sensuality. In comparison the effect of marijuana is actually pretty "boring", like seeing a bad movie compared to a masterpiece. It is good to have that perspective when comparing it with spiritual goods.

[Phillipus Iacobus]

I know this may come as a shocker but I've never smoked pot.  That being said, unless everything I heard about it, and everything I've seen about it firsthand, is a lie, I think it should be legalized.

My understanding of this is that it was only made illegal in the first place due to some corporate attempt to end the surge in hemp products which were hurting their profits (but I'm sure Someone1776 can come in and tell us the definitive story about that).

Anyway, it shouldn't be illegal if alcohol is illegal and it would certainly end a lot of drug related violence if it were allowed to be sold and regulated.

I've never smoked it either.

[rbjmartin]

Okay. But what about penalties. I strong argument can be made that we are not morally bound to pay Federal income tax, but that it would foolish to not do so, as we would face harsh penal punishment (time in a Federal penitentiary.) What say su?

Paying federal income tax is not immoral to do, therefore, we are bound to do it.

Penalties are not the issue. Are we animals to be conditioned?

Su, you are misunderstanding that there are different schools of thought on this. Civil laws (that do not directly reflect the natural law) are not immoral to break.  God's laws carry the temporal punishment of sin when violated. Man's laws, simply by positing certain acts to be illegal, do not augment the moral law. They carry their own penalties, not divine penalties. If I go one mile per hour over the speed limit, technically, I have violated the law, and by your school of thought, this is a sin. But if you understand the speed limit to be a reflection of the natural law (i.e. I should drive safely so I do not harm myself or others), then you understand that it is not immoral to break the speed limit, even by several mph, so long as you are in accord with the natural law and are making a sincere attempt at driving safely.

Civil governments are so arbitrary in their decisions to outlaw certain substances. When I was in college, I used to smoke clove cigarettes on occasion. Now, clove cigarettes are illegal. If I smoked one now, am I sinning?

Besides, "legitimate authority" is hardly a clear cut matter, and it is an area where the Church really has not developed its position extensively. According to man's conventions, "legitimate authority" can be established solely through murderous and immoral means. If we accept such authority as "legitimate," it would make rebellion of any kind ALWAYS immoral, yet sometimes rebellion is moral and licit.

One other point. I would argue that one does NOT have a moral obligation to pay income tax, because I believe the income tax, in itself, IS immoral. It is a tax that operates on the premise that the government owns 100% of your labor, thereby making you a slave. If income tax rates are variable and can be arbitrarily raised from 9% to 90%, the government is essentially assuming that it owns your labor and it can let you keep whatever portion it desires you to keep. You do not get to negotiate with the government about this. It is pure coercion, and if it demanded 100% of your income, you would be obliged to give it or face imprisonment.

[Phillipus Iacobus]

Okay. But what about penalties. I strong argument can be made that we are not morally bound to pay Federal income tax, but that it would foolish to not do so, as we would face harsh penal punishment (time in a Federal penitentiary.) What say su?

Paying federal income tax is not immoral to do, therefore, we are bound to do it.

Penalties are not the issue. Are we animals to be conditioned?

Su, you are misunderstanding that there are different schools of thought on this. Civil laws (that do not directly reflect the natural law) are not immoral to break.  God's laws carry the temporal punishment of sin when violated. Man's laws, simply by positing certain acts to be illegal, do not augment the moral law. They carry their own penalties, not divine penalties. If I go one mile per hour over the speed limit, technically, I have violated the law, and by your school of thought, this is a sin. But if you understand the speed limit to be a reflection of the natural law (i.e. I should drive safely so I do not harm myself or others), then you understand that it is not immoral to break the speed limit, even by several mph, so long as you are in accord with the natural law and are making a sincere attempt at driving safely.

Civil governments are so arbitrary in their decisions to outlaw certain substances. When I was in college, I used to smoke clove cigarettes on occasion. Now, clove cigarettes are illegal. If I smoked one now, am I sinning?

Besides, "legitimate authority" is hardly a clear cut matter, and it is an area where the Church really has not developed its position extensively. According to man's conventions, "legitimate authority" can be established solely through murderous and immoral means. If we accept such authority as "legitimate," it would make rebellion of any kind ALWAYS immoral, yet sometimes rebellion is moral and licit.

One other point. I would argue that one does NOT have a moral obligation to pay income tax, because I believe the income tax, in itself, IS immoral. It is a tax that operates on the premise that the government owns 100% of your labor, thereby making you a slave. If income tax rates are variable and can be arbitrarily raised from 9% to 90%, the government is essentially assuming that it owns your labor and it can let you keep whatever portion it desires you to keep. You do not get to negotiate with the government about this. It is pure coercion, and if it demanded 100% of your income, you would be obliged to give it or face imprisonment.

Thank you. This is partially part of what I was saying.

[Tim]

Having come through the time when this stuff became fashionable, potheads were always very low on the "drug addict scale". Thee is no comparison to heroin, or crack. Pot is light weight. Inexperienced drinkers, young men, can get beer muscles, and usually if a burbanite, get their ass kicked. Booze can be dangerous for lots of reasons. The war on marijuana is a conflation of truly wicked substances with something which does small harm. I know, I know but it harms you. Well so does eating all the GMO that is sold in Supermarkets. Think of living in a hovel with a fire burning all winter and inhaling that smoke, then think of cigarettes, and then pot. The fire was worse. There was a news item here about the exhaust of city buses, they are 8 times more carcenogenic than cigarette smoking. Think of all the kids like me in the day that took the MTA to school anytime I had an extra seven cents. cough cough cough

tim

[elizabee]

The paranoia thing can also be related to the specific kind of pot - there are many strains available, within two major branches (just google marijuana seeds to see a catalog!), and/or other crap cut into it. Hence, it wouldn't be so much of an issue of it was legalized and regulated.

[formerbuddhist]

Old Salt- It's interesting you mention it brought on paranoia and sadness. I noticed the same thing at times. I lived in a perpetual state of melancholia and could become really weird and distant. One thing I have heard and my own experience seems to validate is that marijuana's effects depend to a great extent on your mood, the surroundings, etc, in other words it's effects are very subjective. Sometimes I could be with friends having a great time laughing, joking or whatever and at others I could become really withdrawn, sad and paranoid, thinking everyone is staring at me or that everyone passing by in every car knows I'm high. The last time I ever smoked it was really strong and it had been awhile and I almost lost it I felt like I was going crazy. There was almost a demonic feel to the whole thing and I had to listen to Gregorian Chant and keep telling myself that it wouldn't last and I would eventually feel normal again. After that it became apparent to me that this stuff is not to be messed with. I can't say that others can't handle it or whatever but based on my own several year long heavy use of the stuff I wouldn't encourage it but then again I have an addictive personality.