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Su
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« Reply #180 on: February 06, 2012, 04:26:PM » |
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fair enough,,hyperbolic response withdrawn. But the problem is communism has NO intrinsic lawfullness in natural law.
That is true and a the people who pushed communism/socialism failed greatly and they will answer for it. |
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JoeVoxxPop
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« Reply #181 on: February 06, 2012, 04:36:PM » |
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fair enough,,hyperbolic response withdrawn. But the problem is communism has NO intrinsic lawfullness in natural law.
That is true and a the people who pushed communism/socialism failed greatly and they will answer for it. so if I smoke pot in china it would be wrong? But not in amsterdam? |
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rbjmartin
Gold Fish
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Location: San Antonio, TX
Personality type: sanguine
Posts: 4,877
timorem domini docebo vos
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« Reply #182 on: February 06, 2012, 04:39:PM » |
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Thus far, you have only defined authority as force. This makes any mafia boss an "authority," by your definition.
But for there being a higher authority, the law. That is the key. But whose law? You accused voxxpopulisuxx of circular reasoning, but appears to me that you are the one engaging in such. Let me put the following scenario to you. A mafia boss, who coerces compliance with his wishes by force, has a set of "rules" that everyone in his region knows they need to obey, or they will suffer violence. The local government is incompetent and corrupt, often violating its own rules (i.e. its constitution), and the police force is unable to enforce the "official" law. Eventually, the government deteriorates to the point that it is unable to exercise authority, powerless to defy the mafia boss. No one votes in the elections, and no one pays attention or respect to the police. Finally, the mafia boss becomes the de facto ruler of his region, being the only one able to enforce any sort of order (via his "rules" and the violence he employs to assure compliance). He codifies his "rules" on paper and calls it the law. No one publicly disagrees, because they are afraid of suffering violence or being imprisoned. So is the mafia boss now the right and lawful authority under God? Without him, there would be no "government," as the previous government is now just a toothless ghost of a government, lacking in all credibility and power. Has the mafia boss, who is now the higher authority with the backing of his own law, somehow obtained the status of "lawful authority under God"? |
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Nolite confidere in principibus. - Psalm 145
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Su
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« Reply #183 on: February 06, 2012, 04:51:PM » |
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Thus far, you have only defined authority as force. This makes any mafia boss an "authority," by your definition.
But for there being a higher authority, the law. That is the key. But whose law? You accused voxxpopulisuxx of circular reasoning, but appears to me that you are the one engaging in such. Let me put the following scenario to you. A mafia boss, who coerces compliance with his wishes by force, has a set of "rules" that everyone in his region knows they need to obey, or they will suffer violence. The local government is incompetent and corrupt, often violating its own rules (i.e. its constitution), and the police force is unable to enforce the "official" law. Eventually, the government deteriorates to the point that it is unable to exercise authority, powerless to defy the mafia boss. No one votes in the elections, and no one pays attention or respect to the police. Finally, the mafia boss becomes the de facto ruler of his region, being the only one able to enforce any sort of order (via his "rules" and the violence he employs to assure compliance). He codifies his "rules" on paper and calls it the law. No one publicly disagrees, because they are afraid of suffering violence or being imprisoned. So is the mafia boss now the right and lawful authority under God? Without him, there would be no "government," as the previous government is now just a toothless ghost of a government, lacking in all credibility and power. Has the mafia boss, who is now the higher authority with the backing of his own law, somehow obtained the status of "lawful authority under God"? Look, I am not making this stuff up. It is all in Church history. Basically, people with power have responsibility under God and they get their authority from God. Basically, people with power have responsibility to use it for a proper End. |
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rbjmartin
Gold Fish
Gender:
Location: San Antonio, TX
Personality type: sanguine
Posts: 4,877
timorem domini docebo vos
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« Reply #184 on: February 06, 2012, 05:13:PM » |
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Look, I am not making this stuff up. It is all in Church history.
That's not an argument. Lots of evil things have happened in Church history. Basically , people with power have responsibility under God and they get their authority from God. Basically, people with power have responsibility to use it for a proper End.
I know what people with power have responsibility to do, but the question is, what responsibility do we have to them, and how do we determine if we owe them obedience? You have failed to provide me with a solid principle and you ignored the scenario I posed to you. |
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Nolite confidere in principibus. - Psalm 145
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LoneWolfRadTrad
Sheepdog in wolf's clothing
Member
Gender:
Location: Living in the New World Order/Anti-Christendom but not of the New World Order/Anti-Christendom
Personality type: A sinister kid, the boy with the broken halo... :P usually accused of being a comedic/outgoing/charming/laid back guy. Too laid back in the eyes of most, they wouldn't believe I have a temper. You'd have to do alot to get me angry.
Posts: 1,729
Too often seeing red.
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« Reply #185 on: February 06, 2012, 05:33:PM » |
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Geographically conditional sins, lolz.
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When you go up to receive communion, you're literally at the foot of the cross. Standing at all creation's center, the saints gather around. Martyrs, heroes staring into your very being. They lived AND died for Christ... can we say the same of ourselves? What are WE doing to further God's will in this life? Skipping Mass for our careers? Our education? Voting for heads of state, that don't recognize the source of all authority and power? They won't matter on your deathbed (or whatever end we meet).
So... why waste time with this modern world's nonsense? We have our own civilization: CHRISTENDOM. We must restore it whilst the modern world commits societal suicide.
Its naive and idealistic to believe government for man by man can succeed. Restore Christendom in our hearts and homes! Communities aren't that far off, its a numbers game.
"Accursed is the man that puts his trust in man" Book of Jeremiah Chapter XVII, verse 5.
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rbjmartin
Gold Fish
Gender:
Location: San Antonio, TX
Personality type: sanguine
Posts: 4,877
timorem domini docebo vos
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« Reply #186 on: February 06, 2012, 06:28:PM » |
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Geographically conditional sins, lolz.
 What if my left foot is in a marijuana-legal state and my right foot is in a marijuana-illegal state? What if I hold the joint in my left hand and never allow it to cross the border? |
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Nolite confidere in principibus. - Psalm 145
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Crusading Philologist
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« Reply #187 on: February 06, 2012, 06:32:PM » |
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Geographically conditional sins, lolz.
I know, right? I once had some guy tell me that while it was perfectly acceptable to take firing practice at a firing range, it was wrong for me to do so in the neighborhood. How absurd! |
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Loyalty to a doctrine ends in adherence to the interpretation we give it.
Only loyalty to a person frees us from all self-complacency. - Nicolás Gómez Dávila
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LoneWolfRadTrad
Sheepdog in wolf's clothing
Member
Gender:
Location: Living in the New World Order/Anti-Christendom but not of the New World Order/Anti-Christendom
Personality type: A sinister kid, the boy with the broken halo... :P usually accused of being a comedic/outgoing/charming/laid back guy. Too laid back in the eyes of most, they wouldn't believe I have a temper. You'd have to do alot to get me angry.
Posts: 1,729
Too often seeing red.
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« Reply #188 on: February 06, 2012, 06:39:PM » |
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Geographically conditional sins, lolz.
I know, right? I once had some guy tell me that while it was perfectly acceptable to take firing practice at a firing range, it was wrong for me to do so in the neighborhood. How absurd! Logical fallacy. |
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When you go up to receive communion, you're literally at the foot of the cross. Standing at all creation's center, the saints gather around. Martyrs, heroes staring into your very being. They lived AND died for Christ... can we say the same of ourselves? What are WE doing to further God's will in this life? Skipping Mass for our careers? Our education? Voting for heads of state, that don't recognize the source of all authority and power? They won't matter on your deathbed (or whatever end we meet).
So... why waste time with this modern world's nonsense? We have our own civilization: CHRISTENDOM. We must restore it whilst the modern world commits societal suicide.
Its naive and idealistic to believe government for man by man can succeed. Restore Christendom in our hearts and homes! Communities aren't that far off, its a numbers game.
"Accursed is the man that puts his trust in man" Book of Jeremiah Chapter XVII, verse 5.
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rbjmartin
Gold Fish
Gender:
Location: San Antonio, TX
Personality type: sanguine
Posts: 4,877
timorem domini docebo vos
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« Reply #189 on: February 06, 2012, 06:45:PM » |
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Geographically conditional sins, lolz.
I know, right? I once had some guy tell me that while it was perfectly acceptable to take firing practice at a firing range, it was wrong for me to do so in the neighborhood. How absurd! Logical fallacy. Bigtime. |
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Nolite confidere in principibus. - Psalm 145
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