Old Salt
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Sancta Dei Genitrix Ora Pro Nobis.
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« Reply #100 on: February 06, 2012, 01:56:PM » |
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In those two SB wins, the Pats were the more talented team and Eli had to make the throws for NY to win - it's not as if the defense took over the games and Eli just played not to lose it.
Rothlisberger played better for the SEAHAWKS, in his first SB win!!!!!!
Exactly. |
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Don't forget to pray for the dead.
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Walty
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« Reply #101 on: February 06, 2012, 03:11:PM » |
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Eli is in the top 5.
He has proved it with two Superbowl wins.
Rodgers for all his personal talent and abilities has not done this.
If I was a GM I would take Eli over Rodgers at this point.
Manning has no fear and can play in the huge game.
Lol. He's also played for twice as long. You guys are ridiculous. If you compare what Rodgers has done in his first four years and what Eli did, it's not even close. Maybe in another 4 years, if Rodgers has underachieved and fallen off the path he appears to be on, then you'll have a point. But right now you're just arguing apples and oranges. It's like saying that, objectively, Joe Montana was a better QB than Eli because he won 4 Super Bowls. Eli hasn't had a chance to match that yet. And Dan Marino... a guy who a ton of people talk about as the best ever... I guess he's actually worse than most of the QBs we are talking about here. Trent Dilfer is more "elite" because he won a Super Bowl and Marino didn't. Super Bowls mean a lot, but this isn't the NBA. Even though we're talking about QBs, even the best can't will themselves to championships, or pick up a team with no talent on offense or defense. And, again, there is absolutely no GM in the league who would take Eli over Rodgers. Who wants to take the guy with less wins and worse stats? Lol. |
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The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes;
she is tolerant in practice because she loves.
The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe;
they are intolerant in practice because they do not love. Timorem Domini docebo vos. |
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Walty
Gold Fish
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« Reply #102 on: February 06, 2012, 03:12:PM » |
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In those two SB wins, the Pats were the more talented team and Eli had to make the throws for NY to win - it's not as if the defense took over the games and Eli just played not to lose it.
Rothlisberger played better for the SEAHAWKS, in his first SB win!!!!!!
Where are you pulling this crap from? Who says that the Patriots were the more talented team? They lost twice to the Giants. That seems to dispel that argument pretty readily. |
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The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes;
she is tolerant in practice because she loves.
The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe;
they are intolerant in practice because they do not love. Timorem Domini docebo vos. |
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Old Salt
Yep.
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Gender:
Personality type: melancholic
Posts: 4,902
Sancta Dei Genitrix Ora Pro Nobis.
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« Reply #103 on: February 06, 2012, 03:15:PM » |
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Thats why I qualified my statement saying "at this point".
Eli has led his team to two Superbowl wins whether he has played 4 years or 14 period.
Eli is one of the elite.
When Rodgers, or anyone does this at any point in his career they will be elite.
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Walty
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« Reply #104 on: February 06, 2012, 03:16:PM » |
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Also, cut it with the Flynn crap. Do you normally watch football or did you just tune in at the end of this season? Flynn had a GREAT game, but if you had actually watched it, he missed throws and made mistakes that Rodgers would have. One of the underlying stories of the day was the question of what sort of monster numbers Rodgers would have put up if he had played. They would have been as good, if not better.
If Rodgers is just a system QB, who only plays well because his team is just so amazing, then that makes Flynn a system guy too. Some team is going to be ridiculously stupid to pay big money for him next year and start him, eh?
If he goes to a sub-par team, which he most likely will, and falls flat on his face then maybe your argument will hold. But until then, one back-up QB having a great game doesn't mean that the starter is just a system guy. When Steve Young came in and took over Joe Montana's team and played lights out, did that mean Montana was really actually super overrated?
No. Sometimes you can have two excellent QBs on the same team. It doesn't happen often, but it happens.
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The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes;
she is tolerant in practice because she loves.
The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe;
they are intolerant in practice because they do not love. Timorem Domini docebo vos. |
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Walty
Gold Fish
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« Reply #105 on: February 06, 2012, 03:17:PM » |
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Thats why I qualified my statement saying "at this point".
Eli has led his team to two Superbowl wins whether he has played 4 years or 14 period.
Eli is one of the elite.
When Rodgers, or anyone does this at any point in his career they will be elite.
Lol. So what's your cut-off? You have to win two Super Bowls to be elite? One doesn't cut it? Why two? Why not three? Why not four? And that's the only factor that goes into this? So Joe Montana and Terry Bradshaw must be the two best QBs of all time, eh? Lol. Dilfer > Marino. |
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The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes;
she is tolerant in practice because she loves.
The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe;
they are intolerant in practice because they do not love. Timorem Domini docebo vos. |
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Old Salt
Yep.
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Personality type: melancholic
Posts: 4,902
Sancta Dei Genitrix Ora Pro Nobis.
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« Reply #106 on: February 06, 2012, 03:25:PM » |
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Thats why I qualified my statement saying "at this point".
Eli has led his team to two Superbowl wins whether he has played 4 years or 14 period.
Eli is one of the elite.
When Rodgers, or anyone does this at any point in his career they will be elite.
Lol. So what's your cut-off? You have to win two Super Bowls to be elite? One doesn't cut it? Why two? Why not three? Why not four? And that's the only factor that goes into this? So Joe Montana and Terry Bradshaw must be the two best QBs of all time, eh? Lol. Dilfer > Marino. Joe Montana and Johnny Unitas are the best ever. Marino is the next best with Elway. Just because Marino never one does not lessen his greatness. My point is: Eli of all active q-Backs in 2012 is definitely in the top 5. He got hot when it mattered, at the end of the year and during the playoffs and he also did this in 2007. Bottom line is Eli won the huge game when he had to and of all active helmsmen this make him elite. Sorry you feel sore about your loss. |
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Don't forget to pray for the dead.
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Vetus Ordo
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« Reply #107 on: February 06, 2012, 03:27:PM » |
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Rodgers is an amazing QB and his numbers unmistakably show that he's "elite." It's that simple and I think it's a bit disingenuous to argue otherwise. Walty, despite being a cheesehead, is substantially correct in his analysis. It's clear that Rodgers has got the stuff legends are made of. Winning Superbowls is important, of course, but it doesn't tell the whole story.
Dan Marino is justly considered one of the best quarterbacks of all time but since the Dolphins didn't win the Superbowl, apparently he's not "elite." That's laughable.
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"THE LORD is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the protector of my life: of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalm 26:1)
"And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." — Clement, bishop of Rome
"I love truth," says he, "and not sects. I am sometimes a peripatetic, a stoic, or an academician, and often none of them; but—always a Christian. To philosophise is to love wisdom; and the true wisdom is Jesus Christ. Let us read the historians, the poets, and the philosophers; but let us have in our hearts the gospel of Jesus Christ, in which alone is perfect wisdom and perfect happiness." — Petrarch
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Grasshopper
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« Reply #108 on: February 06, 2012, 03:29:PM » |
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You're still missing my point. Two games don't prove anything, and quarterbacks don't win games all by themselves. By your logic, James Starks is an "elite" running back -- "he" won the Super Bowl last year -- and Barry Sanders is a nobody, because he never made it to a Super Bowl. I'm impressed by great careers, not by isolated games. Eli Manning will be an elite quarterback if and when he puts together a long string of great seasons like Brady has done. 95% of all NFL football fans would not share your assessment of "elite" then, I guess. You can't stand Manning after he ripped the Pack in 2007 and this year - I get it. Eli has 2 rings now and Favre and Rodgers have 2 rings total. When I found out you were a GB fan, I got why you refused to see Eli for the QB that he is. I have nothing against Eli Manning. He's a good quarterback, he played a great game yesterday, and he deserves his Super Bowl MVP award. I'm just not ready to canonize him based on that one game. If winning a Super Bowl makes you an elite quarterback, you can add Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, and Jeff Hostetler to the list.  If it takes two Super Bowl wins, you can add Jim Plunkett. When you look at overall performance over the whole career, as I think you must to make a fair assessment, there are at least half a dozen active quarterbacks who are better than Eli Manning. None of this has anything to do with me being a GB fan. I look at the facts, I look at the stats, and I don't pretend that one game proves anything. The facts and the stats show that Eli Manning is a pretty good quarterback who has had two very good postseasons. They also show that he had three mediocre seasons inbetween those two good runs. He is hardly the greatest QB ever to play the game, as some people here seem to think. |
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Norbert
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« Reply #109 on: February 06, 2012, 03:39:PM » |
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Stats! Everybody loves stats.
Rodgers first four years as a starter, including this year, Pass rating: 94, 103, 101, 122.5. TD/INT: 28/13, 30/7, 28/11 (Ring), 45/6. Yardage: 4,038, 4,434, 3,922, 4,643.
Roethlisbergers starting career: Pass rating: 98, 99, 75.4, 104, 80, 100.5, 97, 95.6. TD/INT: 17/11, 17/9, 18/23, 32/11, 17/15, 26/12, 17/5, 21/11. Yardage: 26,000 over 8 years, under
3000 the first two, over 4000 only once, in '09.
Eli Manning as a starter: Pass rating: 55, 76, 77, 74, 86.4, 93, 85, 92. (Avg. 81.1. TD/INT: 6/9, 24/17, 24/18, 23/20, 21/10, 27/14, 31/25, 29/16. Yardage: 24,000 over 8 years, under 3000 only once.
Rodgers: 4 years, one ring.
Eli: 8 years, two rings.
Ben: 8 years, two rings.
Extrapolating Rodgers numbers out, he is on pace to match or beat the ring total, and smash all other statistical categories of the other two on this list..
I inserted ben as a control group. Factoring in the (not totally qb related) fact that Ben has the most wins of any QB through their first five seasons, either Eli is not elite, or Ben is "elite-ier". Eli has (I think) a narrow edge in TD/INT, but total QBR and yardage favor Ben.
Rodgers, if not already elite, will be next year when he "proves it" through the first five years. He's probably the best QB in the league.
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