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Author Topic: Is Protestantism Heresy?  (Read 1694 times)
JayneK
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« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2012, 01:35:PM »

Cardinal Ratzinger said that "there is no appropriate category in Catholic thought" for today's Protestants and yet TrentCath was able to name it: material heresy.  Ratzinger fails or neglects to make this distinction and goes on to say that applying "heresy" to them no longer has any value.  He's right in saying that they're not likely to be formal (obstinate, pernicious) heretics, but he's wrong in saying that this phenomenon's "true theological place has not yet been determined."

Today's Protestants do not profess all articles of the Faith (combined with adherence to false doctrines) and if they do so inculpably, then they're material heretics.  They are objectively in heresy because they do not believe all that God has revealed.  Inculpability does not render that which is heretical the character of orthodoxy.

Isn't material heresy more usually a category applied on an individual basis?  Isn't it new to apply it to an entire group like the Cardinal was doing?
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SouthpawLink
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« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2012, 01:46:PM »

Cardinal Ratzinger said that "there is no appropriate category in Catholic thought" for today's Protestants and yet TrentCath was able to name it: material heresy.  Ratzinger fails or neglects to make this distinction and goes on to say that applying "heresy" to them no longer has any value.  He's right in saying that they're not likely to be formal (obstinate, pernicious) heretics, but he's wrong in saying that this phenomenon's "true theological place has not yet been determined."

Today's Protestants do not profess all articles of the Faith (combined with adherence to false doctrines) and if they do so inculpably, then they're material heretics.  They are objectively in heresy because they do not believe all that God has revealed.  Inculpability does not render that which is heretical the character of orthodoxy.

Isn't material heresy more usually a category applied on an individual basis?  Isn't it new to apply it to an entire group like the Cardinal was doing?

Now that you mention it, it makes sense that he would do so, given the Church's novel understanding of the positive ecclesial status of non-Catholic sects, viz. they possess elementa Ecclesiae and the Church of Christ is effectively present and operative in them.

I don't agree with this new framework, but that's what's in place now.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 01:51:PM by SouthpawLink » Logged

"It preaches that not only in civil affairs, which is not Our concern here, but also in religion, God has given every individual a wide freedom to embrace and adopt without danger to his salvation whatever sect or opinion appeals to him on the basis of his private judgment.  The apostle Paul warns us against the impiety of these madmen" (Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum, n. 12).

"Likewise, peace is rooted in respect for religious freedom, which is a fundamental and primordial aspect of the freedom of conscience of individuals and of the freedom of peoples.  It is important that everywhere in the world every person can belong to the religion of his choice and practise it freely without fear" (Pope Benedict XVI, Address to Five New Ambassadors, 18 May 2006).
TrentCath
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« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2012, 02:01:PM »

Cardinal Ratzinger said that "there is no appropriate category in Catholic thought" for today's Protestants and yet TrentCath was able to name it: material heresy.  Ratzinger fails or neglects to make this distinction and goes on to say that applying "heresy" to them no longer has any value.  He's right in saying that they're not likely to be formal (obstinate, pernicious) heretics, but he's wrong in saying that this phenomenon's "true theological place has not yet been determined."

Today's Protestants do not profess all articles of the Faith (combined with adherence to false doctrines) and if they do so inculpably, then they're material heretics.  They are objectively in heresy because they do not believe all that God has revealed.  Inculpability does not render that which is heretical the character of orthodoxy.

Isn't material heresy more usually a category applied on an individual basis?  Isn't it new to apply it to an entire group like the Cardinal was doing?

No not at all its a long standing principle of Catholic theology.
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SouthpawLink
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« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2012, 03:02:PM »

Isn't material heresy more usually a category applied on an individual basis?  Isn't it new to apply it to an entire group like the Cardinal was doing?

No not at all its a long standing principle of Catholic theology.

Would you kindly elaborate on this long-standing principle?  Who taught it and when?
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"It preaches that not only in civil affairs, which is not Our concern here, but also in religion, God has given every individual a wide freedom to embrace and adopt without danger to his salvation whatever sect or opinion appeals to him on the basis of his private judgment.  The apostle Paul warns us against the impiety of these madmen" (Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum, n. 12).

"Likewise, peace is rooted in respect for religious freedom, which is a fundamental and primordial aspect of the freedom of conscience of individuals and of the freedom of peoples.  It is important that everywhere in the world every person can belong to the religion of his choice and practise it freely without fear" (Pope Benedict XVI, Address to Five New Ambassadors, 18 May 2006).
TrentCath
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« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2012, 03:33:PM »

Isn't material heresy more usually a category applied on an individual basis?  Isn't it new to apply it to an entire group like the Cardinal was doing?

No not at all its a long standing principle of Catholic theology.

Would you kindly elaborate on this long-standing principle?  Who taught it and when?

'You read of the condemnation of heretics and schismatics, but you must remember that the anathemas pronounced against them apply only to such as are obstinately and perversly- or, as we say formally- heretics, and not to those who are in fact in heresy and schism, but are so only through circumstances -as of birth, education, &c.-over which they have no control and are in good faith. These latter are called material heretics' Page 258 'The Threshold of the Catholic Church' Fifth Edition, Rev John B Bagshawe, 1877.

'St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas". "The right Christian faith consists in giving one's voluntary assent to Christ in all that truly belongs to His teaching. There are, therefore, two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity, common to Pagans and Jews; the other by restricting belief to certain points of Christ's doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure, which is the way of heretics. The subject-matter of both faith and heresy is, therefore, the deposit of the faith, that is, the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church. The believer accepts the whole deposit as proposed by the Church; the heretic accepts only such parts of it as commend themselves to his own approval. The heretical tenets may be ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness--free choice--is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material. On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church. The impelling motives are many: intellectual pride or exaggerated reliance on one's own insight; the illusions of religious zeal; the allurements of political or ecclesiastical power; the ties of material interests and personal status; and perhaps others more dishonourable. Heresy thus willed is imputable to the subject and carries with it a varying degree of guilt; it is called formal, because to the material error it adds the informative element of "freely willed".

Pertinacity, that is, obstinate adhesion to a particular tenet is required to make heresy formal. For as long as one remains willing to submit to the Church's decision he remains a Catholic Christian at heart and his wrong beliefs are only transient errors and fleeting opinions. Considering that the human intellect can assent only to truth, real or apparent, studied pertinacity — as distinct from wanton opposition — supposes a firm subjective conviction which may be sufficient to inform the conscience and create "good faith". Such firm convictions result either from circumstances over which the heretic has no control or from intellectual delinquencies in themselves more or less voluntary and imputable. A man born and nurtured in heretical surroundings may live and die without ever having a doubt as to the truth of his creed. On the other hand a born Catholic may allow himself to drift into whirls of anti-Catholic thought from which no doctrinal authority can rescue him, and where his mind becomes incrusted with convictions, or considerations sufficiently powerful to overlay his Catholic conscience. It is not for man, but for Him who searcheth the mind and heart, to sit in judgment on the guilt which attaches to an heretical conscience.
' The Catholic Encyclopedia
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SouthpawLink
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« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2012, 03:45:PM »

TrentCath,
You appear to have argued that applying "material heresy" to non-Catholic sects themselves has been a long-standing principle in theology (in your response to Jayne), but your examples speak only of individual Protestants.
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"It preaches that not only in civil affairs, which is not Our concern here, but also in religion, God has given every individual a wide freedom to embrace and adopt without danger to his salvation whatever sect or opinion appeals to him on the basis of his private judgment.  The apostle Paul warns us against the impiety of these madmen" (Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum, n. 12).

"Likewise, peace is rooted in respect for religious freedom, which is a fundamental and primordial aspect of the freedom of conscience of individuals and of the freedom of peoples.  It is important that everywhere in the world every person can belong to the religion of his choice and practise it freely without fear" (Pope Benedict XVI, Address to Five New Ambassadors, 18 May 2006).
TrentCath
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« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2012, 03:57:PM »

TrentCath,
You appear to have argued that applying "material heresy" to non-Catholic sects themselves has been a long-standing principle in theology (in your response to Jayne), but your examples speak only of individual Protestants.

I speak of protestants today, I do not deny that one must judge by individual circumstance, but one can fairly presume that most protestants are material heretics, as they are born into it, as my sources state.
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INPEFESS
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« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2012, 04:17:PM »

Quote from: Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood, pp. 87-88
“The difficulty in the way of giving an answer is a profound one. Ultimately it is due to the fact that there is no appropriate category in Catholic thought for the phenomenon of Protestantism today (one could say the same of the relationship to the separated churches of the East).

It seems to me that, here, he says "Protestantism," which refers to the belief system itself and  not individual Christians. By using the word "today," he distinguishes the nature of the old belief system from the heresy as it exists today. 

He then says that this old category no longer applies:
Quote from: Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger
It is obvious that the old category of ‘heresy’ is no longer of any value.

He continues by speaking of heresy on the personal level:
Quote from: Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger
Heresy, for Scripture and the early Church, includes the idea of a personal decision against the unity of the Church, and heresy’s characteristic is pertinacia, the obstinacy of him who persists in his own private way. This, however, cannot be regarded as an appropriate description of the spiritual situation of the Protestant Christian.

Then he goes back to talking about the belief system's positive effect on the individual:
Quote from: Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger
In the course of a now centuries-old history, Protestantism has made an important contribution to the realization of Christian faith, fulfilling a positive function in the development of the Christian message and, above all, often giving rise to a sincere and profound faith in the individual non-Catholic Christian, whose separation from the Catholic affirmation has nothing to do with the pertinacia characteristic of heresy.

Then he goes back to talking about the belief system:
Quote from: Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger
Perhaps we may here invert a saying of St. Augustine’s: that an old schism becomes a heresy. The very passage of time alters the character of a division, so that an old division is something essentially different from a new one. Something that was once rightly condemned as heresy cannot later simply become true, but it can gradually develop its own positive ecclesial nature, with which the individual is presented as his church and in which he lives as a believer, not as a heretic.

The Church has acknowledged this in children who have not reached the age of reason or who have not obstinately doubted or denied any dogma of the Catholic Church (e.g. extra Ecclesiam nulla salus). But the nature of that very dogma makes it very difficult for anyone who is aware of it to not deny it while remaining outside the Church. Of course, with the new version of the ecclesiastical unity, Protestants are indeed fundamental members of the "Church of Christ," just not its concrete historical manifestation known as the Catholic Church.

Quote from: Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger
This organization of one group, however, ultimately has an effect on the whole. The conclusion is inescapable, then: Protestantism today is something different from heresy in the traditional sense, a phenomenon whose true theological place has not yet been determined.”

He then goes on to reevaluate the heresy of the belief system itself, with all of its errors, denials, and heresies, in light of the personal exoneration of individuals erring in good faith. But this isn't the first time we've seen this. Benedict XVI is doing exactly what the PCPCU taught a couple decades ago when it used its exoneration of individual Christians to reevaluate the status of the "particular Churches" themselves.

Edited to add: The above-referenced ecumenical text tries to justify itself by claiming that Mystici Corporis Christi was talking about individual persons, but that Lumen Gentium and the ecumenical texts that complemented it are treating of entire "Churches" and "ecclesial communities." As if this incorporation of false teachings (rather than mislead persons), which are inspirations of the devil and manifestations of rebellion, into the "One Church" wasn't heretical enough, it contradicts itself only a few paragraphs later when it turns around and applies this new teaching to individual "non-Catholic" Christians by stating that "Non-Catholic Christians are therefore not outside of the one church" (JIC, Communiqué: Uniatism, Method of Union of the Past, and the Present Search for Full Communion, n. 15; June 1993). This directly contradicts Mystici Corporis Christi, which only a few paragraphs before was marginalized as being a completely different topic.

Dominus Iesus was supposed to clear up this mess, but instead of clarifying things, it made them even more confusing. In fact, it is even more problematic than the document upon which it attempts to expound. Based on very subtle ordering of words and quotes, it is now explicitly heretical rather than only implicitly so. If you follow the citation it provides when attempting to clarify Lumen Gentium's controversial teaching on the Church, you see that the demonstrative pronoun just inside the quotes actually refers to something referenced from the source document (Lumen Gentium) outside of the context of the paragraph in Dominus Iesus. Understanding the adjective in context of the paragraph, as it is written right now, however, it is explicitly heretical by stating that not just "elements of truth and sanctification" found in these other "Churches" are responsible for saving non-Catholic Christians, but that these other "Churches" themselves, with all of their errors, heresies, and denials, are responsible for their salvation. If you don't believe me, see the ecumenical texts (namely, the PCPCU) that complements Dominus Iesus. These texts state that other "Churches" (i.e. Orthodox and Catholic) together make up the "Church of God".

At first glance, the text of Dominus Iesus appears to be just a result of carelessness and sloppiness. But the supplementary ecumenical texts referred to by BXVI actually state explicitly what is inferred by the (perceived) sloppiness of Dominus Iesus. Rather than just "elements of truth" that are found within other "Churches", what we find is that the "blowhard traditionalists who are always interpreting things in a negative light and making mountains out of molehills" were actually right: the Novus Ordo teaches, allegedly as a (supposed) legitimate extension of the Catholic Church's magisterium, that entire Churches (which are actually just false religions), with all of their errors, heresies, and denials, though lacking "full communion", nevertheless belong to the one church, this mysterious "Church of God," providing non-Catholic Christians with access to the economy of salvation.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 09:40:PM by INPEFESS » Logged

I  n
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E t
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E t
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"The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no.  9, June 29, 1896).

“Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).

TraditionalistThomas
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« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2012, 08:15:PM »

Greetings brethren in Christ,

Thanks for all of your answers, I understand it now. I was quite confused for a while!  LOL

Blessings,

TraditionalistThomas.
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« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2012, 08:38:PM »

The point remains, that those who actually care about their religion and seeking after the idea of God (for who can comprehend God) will be saved. Even those who profess other religions, provided they seek God in their own way.

This was decreed by the Extraordinary Magesterium:

"The separated churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from the defects already mentioned, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fulness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church." (Decree on Oecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio, paragraph 3)

"The brethren divided from us also carry out many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. In ways that vary according to the condition of each church or community, these liturgical actions most certainly can truly engender a life of grace, and, one must say, can aptly give access to the communion of salvation." (Decree on Oecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio, paragraph 3)

Even Muslims and Jews can be saved if they have a sincere faith in their religion, right?

"Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

As the Church has taught these things we now have the ability and encouragement to hold these views, contrary to the previous views:
"It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels"

How can we say heresy has every really existed, since to define the contrary or orthodox belief it requires unanimous consent. (so Arius, Nestorius, etc were not counted as bishops?). The orthodox vs heresy argument seems like a circular argument. How can we consider certain councils and popes as heretical based on our own subjective views. Do we not also pick and choose what to believe; so do the Protestants. We argue and argue about points of faith, what is ordinary or extraordinary, what is fallible or infallible, what is dogma or discipline, etc. We argue these ambiguities and split hairs, when in fact we are just one of many opinions.

In essence, any manner in which we believe in a Higher Power, we will be saved, so long as we believe in it with all our heart. God would not condemn the sincere beleivers.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
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