The Eastern Churches and St. Thomas Aquinas

[TrentCath]

"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).

Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

...

At the Council of Florence, Bessarion argued against the existence of real purgatorial fire, and the Greeks were assured that the Roman Church had never issued any dogmatic decree on this subject. In the West the belief in the existence of real fire is common.

You are demanding that Melkite accede to what the Church has never required of the faithful.  You bind heavy and insupportable burdens, and lay them on his shoulders.  You owe him an apology.

Personally, I believe in St. Catherine of Genoa's visions as being actual (if symbolical) depictions of the middle state.  But the Church does not require this belief.  All that the Church requires is belief in purgatory for the saved who need to be freed of all elements of sin, and the effectiveness of praying for the dead in this state.  That is all, and I have heard Orthodox prelates acknowledge that much, let alone Eastern Catholics like Melkite.

  No, I never said ANYTHING about having to believe in literal fire, I merely said pain, that is suffering of some sort, nothing more or less. You will for that reason find no evidence whatsoever where I stated that fire was De Fide or needed, so please read before replying to posts so you don't go around accussing people of things they never said.

[TrentCath]

"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).

Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

...

At the Council of Florence, Bessarion argued against the existence of real purgatorial fire, and the Greeks were assured that the Roman Church had never issued any dogmatic decree on this subject. In the West the belief in the existence of real fire is common.

As to your quotes from the encyclopedia I quote again 'The Second general council of Lyons and the Council of Florence agree in delclaring: "For the allevation of the punishments these are profitable to the poor souls, namely: The Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers amd alms and other works of piety, which the Faithful are accustomed to perform for one another according to the institutions of the Church'

The Council of Trent declaed against the Reformers who rejected the Fires of Purgatory, that there is a cleansing fire, and that the souls held fast in it receive help through the intercessory prayers of the Faithful, above all by the sacrifice of the Altar, which is pleasing to God...' p321 (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma)

And again later on '...Poena damni consists in the temporart exclusion from the beatific vision of God. On the ground of the special judgement which has gone before, it is, however associated with the certainty of the final beatification. The poor souls are conscious that they are children and friends of God and long or the most intimate unification with Him. Thus the termporary separation is all the more painful to them.

To the Poena damni is added, according to the general teaching of the theologians, a poena sensus. The Latin Fathers, the Schoolmen, and many theologians of modern time, in view of 1 Cor 3:15, assume a physical fire. However, the biblical foundation for this is inadequate. Out of consideration for the separate Greeks, who reject the notion of a purifying fire, the official declaration of the Council speak only of purifying punishments not of purifying fire. .... The temporal punishments for sins are atoned for in the purifying fire by the so-called suferng of atonement, that is, by the willing bearing of the expiatory punishments imposed by God'p484-485 (fundamentals of Catholic Dogma)

I am afraid a theological manual, especially when so renowned as 'The fundamentals of Catholic Dogma' has considerably more authority than an encyclopedia.

[Parmandur]

"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).

Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

...

At the Council of Florence, Bessarion argued against the existence of real purgatorial fire, and the Greeks were assured that the Roman Church had never issued any dogmatic decree on this subject. In the West the belief in the existence of real fire is common.

As to your quotes from the encyclopedia I quote again 'The Second general council of Lyons and the Council of Florence agree in delclaring: "For the allevation of the punishments these are profitable to the poor souls, namely: The Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers amd alms and other works of piety, which the Faithful are accustomed to perform for one another according to the institutions of the Church'

The Council of Trent declaed against the Reformers who rejected the Fires of Purgatory, that there is a cleansing fire, and that the souls held fast in it receive help through the intercessory prayers of the Faithful, above all by the sacrifice of the Altar, which is pleasing to God...' p321 (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma)

And again later on '...Poena damni consists in the temporart exclusion from the beatific vision of God. On the ground of the special judgement which has gone before, it is, however associated with the certainty of the final beatification. The poor souls are conscious that they are children and friends of God and long or the most intimate unification with Him. Thus the termporary separation is all the more painful to them.

To the Poena damni is added, according to the general teaching of the theologians, a poena sensus. The Latin Fathers, the Schoolmen, and many theologians of modern time, in view of 1 Cor 3:15, assume a physical fire. However, the biblical foundation for this is inadequate. Out of consideration for the separate Greeks, who reject the notion of a purifying fire, the official declaration of the Council speak only of purifying punishments not of purifying fire. .... The temporal punishments for sins are atoned for in the purifying fire by the so-called suferng of atonement, that is, by the willing bearing of the expiatory punishments imposed by God'p484-485 (fundamentals of Catholic Dogma)

I am afraid a theological manual, especially when so renowned as 'The fundamentals of Catholic Dogma' has considerably more authority than an encyclopedia.

Fair enough; but from what you quoted from Ott, Melkite already said the same thing.  You still owe him an apology for jumping down his throat.

[Parmandur]

Also, here is the full text of Trent on Purgatory.  No mention of fire, which Florence said specifically was not a required belief of the faithful.  It still stands that you were bashing Melkite on the basis of passing off a pious theological opinion as De Fide dogma:

Decree Concerning Purgatory

Since the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, following the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught in sacred councils and very recently in this ecumenical council that there is a purgatory,[1] and that the souls there detained are aided by the suffrages of the faithful and chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar, the holy council commands the bishops that they strive diligently to the end that the sound doctrine of purgatory, transmitted by the Fathers and sacred councils,[2] be believed and maintained by the faithful of Christ, and be everywhere taught and preached. The more difficult and subtle questions, however, and those that do not make for edification and from which there is for the most part no increase in piety, are to be excluded from popular instructions to uneducated people.[3] Likewise, things that are uncertain or that have the appearance of falsehood they shall not permit to be made known publicly and discussed. But those things that tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or that savor of filthy lucre, they shall prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks to the faithful. The bishops shall see to it that the suffrages of the living, that is, the sacrifice of the mass,[4] prayers, alms and other works of piety which they have been accustomed to perform for the faithful departed, be piously and devoutly discharged in accordance with the laws of the Church, and that whatever is due on their behalf from testamentary bequests or other ways, be discharged by the priests and ministers of the Church and others who are bound to render this service not in a perfunctory manner, but diligently and accurately.

[Vetus Ordo]

Accusations of heresy shouldn't be thrown around lightly and we must give our brothers in the faith at least the benefit of the doubt.

Melkite is owed an apology.

[TrentCath]

Also, here is the full text of Trent on Purgatory.  No mention of fire, which Florence said specifically was not a required belief of the faithful.  It still stands that you were bashing Melkite on the basis of passing off a pious theological opinion as De Fide dogma:

Decree Concerning Purgatory

Since the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, following the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught in sacred councils and very recently in this ecumenical council that there is a purgatory,[1] and that the souls there detained are aided by the suffrages of the faithful and chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar, the holy council commands the bishops that they strive diligently to the end that the sound doctrine of purgatory, transmitted by the Fathers and sacred councils,[2] be believed and maintained by the faithful of Christ, and be everywhere taught and preached. The more difficult and subtle questions, however, and those that do not make for edification and from which there is for the most part no increase in piety, are to be excluded from popular instructions to uneducated people.[3] Likewise, things that are uncertain or that have the appearance of falsehood they shall not permit to be made known publicly and discussed. But those things that tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or that savor of filthy lucre, they shall prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks to the faithful. The bishops shall see to it that the suffrages of the living, that is, the sacrifice of the mass,[4] prayers, alms and other works of piety which they have been accustomed to perform for the faithful departed, be piously and devoutly discharged in accordance with the laws of the Church, and that whatever is due on their behalf from testamentary bequests or other ways, be discharged by the priests and ministers of the Church and others who are bound to render this service not in a perfunctory manner, but diligently and accurately.

Ummm can you read? I did not say fire was required, I said suffering or pain was, until you concede that you are just dealing with a strawman

[TrentCath]

Accusations of heresy shouldn't be thrown around lightly and we must give our brothers in the faith at least the benefit of the doubt.

Melkite is owed an apology.

I did not call Melkite a heretic, I said that in the post he professed a heretical opinion, there is a world of difference and no he is not owed an apology.

[Parmandur]

Also, here is the full text of Trent on Purgatory.  No mention of fire, which Florence said specifically was not a required belief of the faithful.  It still stands that you were bashing Melkite on the basis of passing off a pious theological opinion as De Fide dogma:

Decree Concerning Purgatory

Since the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, following the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught in sacred councils and very recently in this ecumenical council that there is a purgatory,[1] and that the souls there detained are aided by the suffrages of the faithful and chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar, the holy council commands the bishops that they strive diligently to the end that the sound doctrine of purgatory, transmitted by the Fathers and sacred councils,[2] be believed and maintained by the faithful of Christ, and be everywhere taught and preached. The more difficult and subtle questions, however, and those that do not make for edification and from which there is for the most part no increase in piety, are to be excluded from popular instructions to uneducated people.[3] Likewise, things that are uncertain or that have the appearance of falsehood they shall not permit to be made known publicly and discussed. But those things that tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or that savor of filthy lucre, they shall prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks to the faithful. The bishops shall see to it that the suffrages of the living, that is, the sacrifice of the mass,[4] prayers, alms and other works of piety which they have been accustomed to perform for the faithful departed, be piously and devoutly discharged in accordance with the laws of the Church, and that whatever is due on their behalf from testamentary bequests or other ways, be discharged by the priests and ministers of the Church and others who are bound to render this service not in a perfunctory manner, but diligently and accurately.

Ummm can you read? I did not say fire was required, I said suffering or pain was, until you concede that you are just dealing with a strawman

Yes, I can read.  You attacked Melkite over his not believing in a physical pain being a component of purgatory, or that is how he read you, suggesting that you might not know how you are coming off in your posts.  "Suffering" and "pain" are used in an analogical sense, as we have no experience of the condition disembodied souls in purgatory find themselves in before the Resurrection, and pain as such is a physical phenomenon.  Believing that there is a privation on the road to the Beatific Vision is something Melkite agreed to.  Why are you being so combative about this?

[Parmandur]

Accusations of heresy shouldn't be thrown around lightly and we must give our brothers in the faith at least the benefit of the doubt.

Melkite is owed an apology.

I did not call Melkite a heretic, I said that in the post he professed a heretical opinion, there is a world of difference and no he is not owed an apology.

This splitting of hairs is highly uncharitable.

[TrentCath]

Accusations of heresy shouldn't be thrown around lightly and we must give our brothers in the faith at least the benefit of the doubt.

Melkite is owed an apology.

I did not call Melkite a heretic, I said that in the post he professed a heretical opinion, there is a world of difference and no he is not owed an apology.

This splitting of hairs is highly uncharitable.

It's not a splitting of hairs, its a real and substantial difference.