I learned something new about SSPX

[JayneK]

That's still not answering the question. How do you know that the Latin rite Mass has been valid these last thousand years?

Given my understanding of the visibility and indefectibility of the Church, this is pretty much a non-issue for me.  I trust that God is guiding His Church.

Okay, that's how YOU resolve it for yourself. But what if Stubborn and his friends are right, and the Church can indeed go wrong? Is there any way of showing that it hasn't?

I think it is possible to disprove the individual points these people make, if one knows enough about Church teaching, but I don't think one can convince people like that.  They will keep coming up with more points. 

But these people don't make me question my own faith.  God loves us so much that He gave His Son to save us from our sins and reconcile us to Himself.  He gave us the Church and established the Sacraments.  I just can't believe that the God who has done all this would abandon us.  The Church and the Sacraments are a gift from Him and He will protect them for us.

[Nic]

You gave no pre-V2 teaching on the matter as you said you were going to do, you only gave your NO biased opinion, which is wrong, which is not what you said you were going to do - well, having a wrong opinion is at least not as bad as a worthless opinion like mine.

BTW, I've held the opinion that CITH is sacrilegious since the time I was 6 or 7 years old - - - you could have listened to a little kid's "worthless opinion" -  and if you had, surely you would never have been an EMHC.

I can say that it is impossible for you to concede the reality that there is a grave crisis within the Church that starts at the top and permeates to Her veins.
Your ability to rationalize away every error as though there is no error - or it's only a little error (except when it comes to those of us who are trying to teach you what the Church has always taught - then the claws come out) is one of the tell tale signs that marks people who have been taught to reject truth in exchange for embracing compromise.
In your case, I believe this is due in large part, to your modernist catholic education combined with many years of NO protestant lex orandi lex credendi. How to undo the damage they did to you is the question.     

I acknowledge many problems and errors in the Church and in the NO Mass.  I believe the problems with the Mass are so severe that it should be abrogated.  But I use the correct terminology and categories to discuss the problems.  Heresy is not the same as sacrilege is not the same lack of validity.  These words all have specific meanings.  You seem to have an emotional revulsion to the NO (which I actually understand and sympathize with) but are incompetent to discuss this at the level of intellect. 

You believe it should be abrogated yet you attend it.  That is just about as illogical as being against abortion and having an abortion.  Just because the New Mass has a "Catholic" label slapped on it doesn't make it Catholic and O.K to attend - not at all - even if the Pope himself says this Mass.  The New Mass is condemned on so many levels that it is incredible how an educated Catholic can miss it or explain it away.  The New Mass is the summit of a new religion - and its rotten fruits prove it.

Stubborn, like many actual trads, uses common sense to see this crisis for what it truly is.  The problem with many these days is trying to explain away and make excuses for the absolutely crippling crisis that has nearly destroyed Catholicism.  It really all has to do with courage - the courage to face the facts and accept the consequences of it (like being denounced by family and friends, not having a regular parish life because the Conciliarists hold most of the churches and being labelled a "schismatic" and "rebel" by the majority who claim to be "Catholics").

[JayneK]

You believe it should be abrogated yet you attend it.  That is just about as illogical as being against abortion and having an abortion.  Just because the New Mass has a "Catholic" label slapped on it doesn't make it Catholic and O.K to attend - not at all - even if the Pope himself says this Mass.  The New Mass is condemned on so many levels that it is incredible how an educated Catholic can miss it or explain it away.  The New Mass is the summit of a new religion - and its rotten fruits prove it.

Recently I took my son to get a vaccination shot.  I have a lot of misgivings about vaccinations and, left to myself, I would not do it.  However, my husband had decided that this was to be done so I obeyed the head of our family.  If I thought that having my son vaccinated were a sin, then I would have grounds to disobey a legitimate authority over me.  But I did not.

I do not think that attending the NO Mass is a sin. I think that it has problems that are sufficiently serious that it ought to be abrogated.  These are not the same thing.  I do not have grounds to disobey legitimate authority over me when I am obliged to go to Mass and the NO is the only option.

You have decided that attending this Mass is a sin and you are therefore obliged to follow your erroneous conscience and not go to it.  I am not obliged to follow your erroneous conscience.

[Nic]

You believe it should be abrogated yet you attend it.  That is just about as illogical as being against abortion and having an abortion.  Just because the New Mass has a "Catholic" label slapped on it doesn't make it Catholic and O.K to attend - not at all - even if the Pope himself says this Mass.  The New Mass is condemned on so many levels that it is incredible how an educated Catholic can miss it or explain it away.  The New Mass is the summit of a new religion - and its rotten fruits prove it.

Recently I took my son to get a vaccination shot.  I have a lot of misgivings about vaccinations and, left to myself, I would not do it.  However, my husband had decided that this was to be done so I obeyed the head of our family.  If I thought that having my son vaccinated were a sin, then I would have grounds to disobey a legitimate authority over me.  But I did not.

I do not think that attending the NO Mass is a sin. I think that it has problems that are sufficiently serious that it ought to be abrogated.  These are not the same thing.  I do not have grounds to disobey legitimate authority over me when I am obliged to go to Mass and the NO is the only option.

You have decided that attending this Mass is a sin and you are therefore obliged to follow your erroneous conscience and not go to it.  I am not obliged to follow your erroneous conscience.

That's where you are dead wrong and throw yourself in among the neo-cons.  When the Faith is at stake you are FULLY obliged to disobey legitimate authority.  We are not obliged to attend a Mass that is not Catholic and does not teach the Catholic Faith.  No person on earth can command me to do this - not even the Pope.  The Pope cannot command me to kill a baby the same way that the Pope cannot command me to go to a non-Catholic Mass just to obtain my Sunday Obligation.  This is the supreme error of the neo-cons. 

But I guess you believe that the Catholics in 16th century England should have attended the Protestantized Masses (the first N.O. Masses by the way) that their bishops "commanded" them to attend just to gain their obligation for the week.  Many of them died instead of doing this.  I guess you believe that those who followed St. Athanasius should have listened to the "commands" of their legitimate authority and attended Arianized Masses.  History proves them right for their courageous stance against abused authority and one day history will prove trads right and neo-cons very, very wrong.  Count on it.

[JayneK]

You have decided that attending this Mass is a sin and you are therefore obliged to follow your erroneous conscience and not go to it.  I am not obliged to follow your erroneous conscience.

That's where you are dead wrong and throw yourself in among the neo-cons.  When the Faith is at stake you are FULLY obliged to disobey legitimate authority.  We are not obliged to attend a Mass that is not Catholic and does not teach the Catholic Faith.  No person on earth can command me to do this - not even the Pope.  The Pope cannot command me to kill a baby the same way that the Pope cannot command me to go to a non-Catholic Mass just to obtain my Sunday Obligation.  This is the supreme error of the neo-cons. 

I agree that we are not obliged to attend a Mass that is not Catholic.  But I disagree that the NO is a Mass that is not Catholic.  Given how I understand the NO, I do not have grounds for disregarding my obligation to attend Mass whenever the TLM is not available.

I have read about, studied and discussed the NO Mass and reached a different conclusion than you have about it.  My conscience is bound by my understanding of situation, not by yours.  If you think I am wrong (as you clearly do) then please pray that God will enlighten me.