Meg
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Posts: 918
Unapologetic Papolator
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« Reply #80 on: February 09, 2012, 01:27:PM » |
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And yet, there is a huge problem here with your husband nearly losing his faith.
Yes, there is a problem and I would appreciate people's prayers for him. I do not appreciate his problems being used as an opportunity to criticize the SSPX. I will pray for him. Perhaps you believe that your husband's problems have little to do with the very negative stances of the SSPX. If so, then I absolutely disagree. I'm not trying to be mean or difficult. Many here believe that the SSPX is above criticism, and this may be because the SSPX seems to think that it can do no wrong, which is unfortunate. I had hope that the SSPX would reconcile, but given there's no humility at all on the part of the SSPX leadership, I don't think that reconciliation is possible. I do appreciate that you personally care about the pope very much. If only this were the case with most SSPX adherents. A schismatic mentality (which you do not have) always despises Church authority. The pope wants very much for the SSPX to reconcile, but not on SSPX terms. But that's getting into another subject. Lavallierre: I appreciate your comments very much. |
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"And by experience we see that many persons who recite a great number of vocal prayers, the Office and the Rosary, fall into sin, and continue to live in sin. But he who attends to mental prayer scarcely ever falls into sin, and should he have the misfortune of ever falling into it, he will hardly continue to live in so miserable a state; he will either give up mental prayer, or renounce sin. Meditation and sin cannot stand together. However abandoned a soul may be, if she perseveres in meditation, God will bring her to salvation."
~ St. Alphonsus Ligouri
Dignities and Duties of the Priest (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, 1927). P. 292
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Lavalliere
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Posts: 318
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« Reply #81 on: February 09, 2012, 01:34:PM » |
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And yet, there is a huge problem here with your husband nearly losing his faith.
Yes, there is a problem and I would appreciate people's prayers for him. I do not appreciate his problems being used as an opportunity to criticize the SSPX. I will pray for him. Perhaps you believe that your husband's problems have little to do with the very negative stances of the SSPX. If so, then I absolutely disagree. I'm not trying to be mean or difficult. Many here believe that the SSPX is above criticism, and this may be because the SSPX seems to think that it can do no wrong, which is unfortunate. I had hope that the SSPX would reconcile, but given there's no humility at all on the part of the SSPX leadership, I don't think that reconciliation is possible. I do appreciate that you personally care about the pope very much. If only this were the case with most SSPX adherents. A schismatic mentality (which you do not have) always despises Church authority. The pope wants very much for the SSPX to reconcile, but not on SSPX terms. But that's getting into another subject. Lavallierre: I appreciate your comments very much. Meg, you are very welcome! I have been there, done that., for over two decades. I see though, from Jayne's responses, that it is futile to discuss it further with her. |
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Guardian
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Posts: 782
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« Reply #82 on: February 09, 2012, 01:38:PM » |
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What is your definition of "Church"?
To be in the Church, people must have right teaching, valid Sacraments and communion with the Pope. The SSPX teaches what the Church has always taught, has intrinsically valid Sacraments and acknowledges the Pope as earthly head of the Church. They "acknowledge" him, in that they recognize that the chair of Peter is not vacant. They "acknowledge" him, in that they pray for him. That is the extent of it. Do they listen to him? No. Do they obey him? Not a chance. The SSPX is not "the Church" as many people on here believe. No matter how good their preaching is, unless they are in full Communion with Rome they remain just as separate as when they initially split. |
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"Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, I offer You the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the sacrileges, outrages and indifference by which He Himself is offended. And through the infinite merits of His most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of you the conversion of poor sinners."
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JayneK
Gold Fish
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Personality type: INTJ
Posts: 14,431
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« Reply #83 on: February 09, 2012, 01:42:PM » |
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Many here believe that the SSPX is above criticism, and this may be because the SSPX seems to think that it can do no wrong,
I do not think that anyone is beyond criticism but I think that the way we criticize is very important. I am not happy with the way that I have criticized the SSPX in the past. |
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ADORABLE Saviour, consider my many wants, and grant me those graces which Thou knowest I stand in need of to do Thy will in all things.
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Vetus Ordo
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Personality type: Sinner
Posts: 18,069
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« Reply #84 on: February 09, 2012, 01:44:PM » |
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Please, the SSPX are not outside the Church. Their bishops and priests are not excommunicated and never were. They do not deny any doctrine of the faith, unlike many bishops "in good standing," and they recognise and accept the Pope in his role as supreme pastor of Christians and vicar of Christ.
The Society is not above criticism, no-one is, not even the Pope, but this emerging trend to malign them in what used to be a haven for traditional Catholicism is worrisome.
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"THE LORD is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the protector of my life: of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalm 26:1)
"And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." — Clement, bishop of Rome
"I love truth," says he, "and not sects. I am sometimes a peripatetic, a stoic, or an academician, and often none of them; but—always a Christian. To philosophise is to love wisdom; and the true wisdom is Jesus Christ. Let us read the historians, the poets, and the philosophers; but let us have in our hearts the gospel of Jesus Christ, in which alone is perfect wisdom and perfect happiness." — Petrarch
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JayneK
Gold Fish
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Personality type: INTJ
Posts: 14,431
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« Reply #85 on: February 09, 2012, 01:46:PM » |
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To be in the Church, people must have right teaching, valid Sacraments and communion with the Pope.
The SSPX teaches what the Church has always taught, has intrinsically valid Sacraments and acknowledges the Pope as earthly head of the Church.
They "acknowledge" him, in that they recognize that the chair of Peter is not vacant. They "acknowledge" him, in that they pray for him. That is the extent of it. Do they listen to him? No. Do they obey him? Not a chance. The SSPX is not "the Church" as many people on here believe. No matter how good their preaching is, unless they are in full Communion with Rome they remain just as separate as when they initially split. They obey him as much as they can in good conscience. That is all that anyone who recognizes the pope ought to do. |
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ADORABLE Saviour, consider my many wants, and grant me those graces which Thou knowest I stand in need of to do Thy will in all things.
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Meg
Member
Gender:
Posts: 918
Unapologetic Papolator
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« Reply #86 on: February 09, 2012, 01:53:PM » |
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What is your definition of "Church"?
To be in the Church, people must have right teaching, valid Sacraments and communion with the Pope. The SSPX teaches what the Church has always taught, has intrinsically valid Sacraments and acknowledges the Pope as earthly head of the Church. They "acknowledge" him, in that they recognize that the chair of Peter is not vacant. They "acknowledge" him, in that they pray for him. That is the extent of it. Do they listen to him? No. Do they obey him? Not a chance. The SSPX is not "the Church" as many people on here believe. No matter how good their preaching is, unless they are in full Communion with Rome they remain just as separate as when they initially split. I agree, except that with the lifting of the excomms, at least the SSPX bishops can now receive the sacraments from the Church, if they choose to. What they do not have, of course, is canonical status, and, according the the pope, they do not practice a legitimate ministry within the Church. This is what the pope stated in his letter to the German bishops after the excommunications were lifted. Sadly, I don't think that this will change. |
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"And by experience we see that many persons who recite a great number of vocal prayers, the Office and the Rosary, fall into sin, and continue to live in sin. But he who attends to mental prayer scarcely ever falls into sin, and should he have the misfortune of ever falling into it, he will hardly continue to live in so miserable a state; he will either give up mental prayer, or renounce sin. Meditation and sin cannot stand together. However abandoned a soul may be, if she perseveres in meditation, God will bring her to salvation."
~ St. Alphonsus Ligouri
Dignities and Duties of the Priest (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, 1927). P. 292
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Guardian
Member
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Posts: 782
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« Reply #87 on: February 09, 2012, 01:56:PM » |
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The Society is not above criticism, no-one is, not even the Pope, but this emerging trend to malign them in what used to be a haven for traditional Catholicism is worrisome.
Maybe people really want them to reunite with Rome are starting to see what the society refuses to see. Mainly, that with a little humility(granted on both sides), and acknowledgement of authority things might actually get somewhere..... |
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"Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, I offer You the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the sacrileges, outrages and indifference by which He Himself is offended. And through the infinite merits of His most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of you the conversion of poor sinners."
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Old Salt
Yep.
Member
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Personality type: melancholic
Posts: 4,902
Sancta Dei Genitrix Ora Pro Nobis.
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« Reply #88 on: February 09, 2012, 02:06:PM » |
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What is your definition of "Church"?
To be in the Church, people must have right teaching, valid Sacraments and communion with the Pope. The SSPX teaches what the Church has always taught, has intrinsically valid Sacraments and acknowledges the Pope as earthly head of the Church. They "acknowledge" him, in that they recognize that the chair of Peter is not vacant. They "acknowledge" him, in that they pray for him. That is the extent of it. Do they listen to him? No. Do they obey him? Not a chance. The SSPX is not "the Church" as many people on here believe. No matter how good their preaching is, unless they are in full Communion with Rome they remain just as separate as when they initially split. I agree, except that with the lifting of the excomms, at least the SSPX bishops can now receive the sacraments from the Church, if they choose to. What they do not have, of course, is canonical status, and, according the the pope, they do not practice a legitimate ministry within the Church. This is what the pope stated in his letter to the German bishops after the excommunications were lifted. Sadly, I don't think that this will change. "I agree, except that with the lifting of the excomms, at least the SSPX bishops can now receive the sacraments from the Church, if they choose to." Do you really think that the SSPX bishops go to diocesan priests for confession? Maybe they do, but I do not think this is realistic. |
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Don't forget to pray for the dead.
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Vetus Ordo
Member
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Personality type: Sinner
Posts: 18,069
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« Reply #89 on: February 09, 2012, 02:47:PM » |
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The Society is not above criticism, no-one is, not even the Pope, but this emerging trend to malign them in what used to be a haven for traditional Catholicism is worrisome.
Maybe people really want them to reunite with Rome are starting to see what the society refuses to see. Mainly, that with a little humility(granted on both sides), and acknowledgement of authority things might actually get somewhere..... The Society refuses to see what? Don't deceive yourself. It's Rome who refuses to see the calamity brought about by modernism, duly concealed in the conciliar teachings and brought unto full fruitiion by the fallible yet authentic magisterium of the subsequent popes ever since. The crisis of faith is as acute as ever and the diabolical disorientation is manifest. Recently, the pope even praised the heresiarch Martin Luther for being "a great witness of the faith."It's not the Society who is being unreasonably stubborn, it's the Pope who is refusing to do his duty as supreme pastor and teacher of all Christians. |
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"THE LORD is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the protector of my life: of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalm 26:1)
"And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." — Clement, bishop of Rome
"I love truth," says he, "and not sects. I am sometimes a peripatetic, a stoic, or an academician, and often none of them; but—always a Christian. To philosophise is to love wisdom; and the true wisdom is Jesus Christ. Let us read the historians, the poets, and the philosophers; but let us have in our hearts the gospel of Jesus Christ, in which alone is perfect wisdom and perfect happiness." — Petrarch
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