JayneK
Gold Fish
Gender: 
Personality type: INTJ
Posts: 14,360
|
|
« Reply #220 on: May 12, 2012, 11:08:AM » |
|
And your pre-V2 source for facing the people? You ever going to produce that?
There are no statements that facing the people is not heretical because Church teaching does not take that form. There are however examples of churches constructed so that it is only possible for the priest to say Mass this way. in several churches in Rome, it was physically impossible, even before the twentieth-century liturgical reforms, for the priest to celebrate Mass facing away from the people, because of the presence, immediately in front of the altar, of the "confession" (Latin: confessio), an area sunk below floor level to enable people to come close to the tomb of the saint buried beneath the altar. The best-known such "confession" is that in St Peter's Basilica, but many other churches in Rome have the same architectural feature A normal person would consider this to be proof that the Church has never considered versus populum placement to be heretical. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
ADORABLE Saviour, consider my many wants, and grant me those graces which Thou knowest I stand in need of to do Thy will in all things.
|
|
|
Stubborn
Member
Gender: 
Posts: 5,017
|
|
« Reply #221 on: May 12, 2012, 11:12:AM » |
|
Where is this dogma that declares the pope cannot promulgate error anyway? To date, no one has ever produced such a thing far as I know.
There is a document produced by the pope who condemned the errors of Jansenism, in which this is asserted but its not entirely clear (as its a condemnation of a jansenist position) nor are the limits set out, so certainly we can still believe a pope can err and this is a 'good' theological opinion. Well I can say this much for sure without any hesitation whatsoever.....................the modernistic NO happened with full approval of Pope Paul VI and has been further promulgated by all the conciliar popes. Whoever says the NO is not evil because the pope cannot promulgate error fools themselves if they are still choosing to remain a fool after 50 years of this NO crap. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
It is the Mass that matters.
But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. -Apocalypse 3:16
|
|
|
NOtard
Member
Gender:
Posts: 366
|
|
« Reply #222 on: May 12, 2012, 04:00:PM » |
|
Jayne, you're kind of missing the point. Stubborn seems to think that, in the NOM, the priest somehow performs the sacrifice with his hands behind his back. He equates everyone facing towards the altar as not "facing God". That sort of nonsense is pretty easy to ignore.
No, the only real point that Stubborn is making, which nobody seems to be addressing, is that it is quite possible for the whole Catholic Church to celebrate Mass which only ends up with only a piece of bread. Stubborn claims that this has been happening for the last 40 years or so, but if it's possible, how do we know WHEN the Mass stopped really changing the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord? A good case could be made that it happened when the Roman church changed the creed that was decided at the Council of Nicea. How would you prove otherwise?
Now, to make it clear, I'm no longer seriously thinking that way (partly because I think I would have to go to confession about it if I did). I saw in another thread how Stubborn does not consider himself Catholic (he would consider marriage to a Catholic to be a mixed marriage), so it's no longer a matter of thinking "there's a whole bunch of Catholics who don't think that the consecrated bread and wine are really the Body and Blood", it's now a matter of thinking "there's a whole bunch of people that belong to some other sect who don't recognize Catholic sacraments", which has always been the case, and which does not cause any cognitve dissonance, because after all, there are a whole bunch of people who think all SORTS of wrong ideas.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 04:06:PM by NOtard »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
JayneK
Gold Fish
Gender:
Personality type: INTJ
Posts: 14,360
|
|
« Reply #223 on: May 12, 2012, 04:20:PM » |
|
No, the only real point that Stubborn is making, which nobody seems to be addressing, is that it is quite possible for the whole Catholic Church to celebrate Mass which only ends up with only a piece of bread. Stubborn claims that this has been happening for the last 40 years or so, but if it's possible, how do we know WHEN the Mass stopped really changing the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord? A good case could be made that it happened when the Roman church changed the creed that was decided at the Council of Nicea. How would you prove otherwise?
I don't see why you would ever have taken what he said about this seriously, but I'm glad that you have realized that he is wrong and you don't have to pay attention to him. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
ADORABLE Saviour, consider my many wants, and grant me those graces which Thou knowest I stand in need of to do Thy will in all things.
|
|
|
Parmandur
Member
Gender:
Posts: 3,346
|
|
« Reply #224 on: May 12, 2012, 04:23:PM » |
|
No, the only real point that Stubborn is making, which nobody seems to be addressing, is that it is quite possible for the whole Catholic Church to celebrate Mass which only ends up with only a piece of bread. Stubborn claims that this has been happening for the last 40 years or so, but if it's possible, how do we know WHEN the Mass stopped really changing the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord? A good case could be made that it happened when the Roman church changed the creed that was decided at the Council of Nicea. How would you prove otherwise?
I don't see why you would ever have taken what he said about this seriously, but I'm glad that you have realized that he is wrong and you don't have to pay attention to him. I think in a similar manner to NOtard, in terms of taking what people say and asking "what if this was true? What would the world look like?" And then, see how that lines up with the world as it is. That's a large part of why I became Catholic. Further, that's why I am a Trad. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Stubborn
Member
Gender:
Posts: 5,017
|
|
« Reply #225 on: May 12, 2012, 04:48:PM » |
|
Jayne, you're kind of missing the point. Stubborn seems to think that, in the NOM, the priest somehow performs the sacrifice with his hands behind his back. He equates everyone facing towards the altar as not "facing God". That sort of nonsense is pretty easy to ignore. I have no idea how you got that out what I've posted. No, the only real point that Stubborn is making, which nobody seems to be addressing, is that it is quite possible for the whole Catholic Church to celebrate Mass which only ends up with only a piece of bread. Stubborn claims that this has been happening for the last 40 years or so, but if it's possible, how do we know WHEN the Mass stopped really changing the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord? A good case could be made that it happened when the Roman church changed the creed that was decided at the Council of Nicea. How would you prove otherwise? De defectibus under Divine protection from error, established the proper form of consecration ("Institution Narrative" in the NO) so that we can be assured of validity without any scruple of conscience. The NO does not use this form. Here's a link, look it up if actually care. http://www.dailycatholic.org/defectib.htm Now, to make it clear, I'm no longer seriously thinking that way (partly because I think I would have to go to confession about it if I did). I saw in another thread how Stubborn does not consider himself Catholic (he would consider marriage to a Catholic to be a mixed marriage), so it's no longer a matter of thinking "there's a whole bunch of Catholics who don't think that the consecrated bread and wine are really the Body and Blood", it's now a matter of thinking "there's a whole bunch of people that belong to some other sect who don't recognize Catholic sacraments", which has always been the case, and which does not cause any cognitve dissonance, because after all, there are a whole bunch of people who think all SORTS of wrong ideas.
You and Jayne both make unsubstantiated and false accusations your modus operandi. At least I now know where you stand, thanks for that. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
It is the Mass that matters.
But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. -Apocalypse 3:16
|
|
|
NOtard
Member
Gender:
Posts: 366
|
|
« Reply #226 on: May 12, 2012, 06:09:PM » |
|
No, the only real point that Stubborn is making, which nobody seems to be addressing, is that it is quite possible for the whole Catholic Church to celebrate Mass which only ends up with only a piece of bread. Stubborn claims that this has been happening for the last 40 years or so, but if it's possible, how do we know WHEN the Mass stopped really changing the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord? A good case could be made that it happened when the Roman church changed the creed that was decided at the Council of Nicea. How would you prove otherwise?
I don't see why you would ever have taken what he said about this seriously, but I'm glad that you have realized that he is wrong and you don't have to pay attention to him. That's still not answering the question. How do you know that the Latin rite Mass has been valid these last thousand years? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
NOtard
Member
Gender:
Posts: 366
|
|
« Reply #227 on: May 12, 2012, 06:12:PM » |
|
Stubborn seems to think that, in the NOM, the priest somehow performs the sacrifice with his hands behind his back. He equates everyone facing towards the altar as not "facing God". That sort of nonsense is pretty easy to ignore. I have no idea how you got that out what I've posted. In a Mass celebrated versus populum, both the priest and the other people are all facing the altar. You seem to think that this is not "facing God". I'm trying to figure out what position you think the priest must be in. WHEN the Mass stopped really changing the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord? A good case could be made that it happened when the Roman church changed the creed that was decided at the Council of Nicea. How would you prove otherwise? De defectibus under Divine protection from error, established the proper form of consecration ("Institution Narrative" in the NO) so that we can be assured of validity without any scruple of conscience. The NO does not use this form. Here's a link, look it up if actually care. http://www.dailycatholic.org/defectib.htm But that is a document that was published AFTER they had already changed the creed, and after they were already not really doing an epiklesis. You can't very well call on church documents to prove something like this, when you are already saying that church documents can teach error, even documents from ecumenical councils that are ratified by the Pope. How would you decide one way or the other OBJECTIVELY, that is, without ASSUMING the conclusion you are trying to show? |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 06:25:PM by NOtard »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
JayneK
Gold Fish
Gender:
Personality type: INTJ
Posts: 14,360
|
|
« Reply #228 on: May 12, 2012, 06:37:PM » |
|
That's still not answering the question. How do you know that the Latin rite Mass has been valid these last thousand years?
Given my understanding of the visibility and indefectibility of the Church, this is pretty much a non-issue for me. I trust that God is guiding His Church. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
ADORABLE Saviour, consider my many wants, and grant me those graces which Thou knowest I stand in need of to do Thy will in all things.
|
|
|
NOtard
Member
Gender:
Posts: 366
|
|
« Reply #229 on: May 12, 2012, 06:43:PM » |
|
That's still not answering the question. How do you know that the Latin rite Mass has been valid these last thousand years?
Given my understanding of the visibility and indefectibility of the Church, this is pretty much a non-issue for me. I trust that God is guiding His Church. Okay, that's how YOU resolve it for yourself. But what if Stubborn and his friends are right, and the Church can indeed go wrong? Is there any way of showing that it hasn't? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
