Alyssa Bustamante

[Jenn]

Though perhaps you think she should be put away because of the danger she poses, not the crime she committed? Could you clarify?

I just want to be clear before I answer. Are you asking me if she should be put away as punishment vs. being put away simply because she is dangerous?

Yes.

Okay, I see. I'm not sure how to answer that because I don't know how much the Prozac factored into her crime. What's bothering me is that 15 year old females plotting and carrying out gruesome murders isn't exactly an everyday occurrence. It's very unusual, and it makes me suspect that something was extraordinarily wrong with her mind vs. "evil teenager". When I read she was on Prozac, my antennae *really* went up.

I've known some people on that stuff. Some of them seemed to be fine, but others underwent a complete personality change --in a bad way. Someone I know and love very much has been on the psychotropic drug merry-go-round for years trying to find a drug, or a combination of drugs, to help her/him deal with the crippling anxiety and depression that has been a constant companion. S/he has frequently described feelings of "out of control rage" that pop out out of nowhere. This rage so scares this person that s/he refuses to drive/go anywhere when he/she is in the midst of it.

(Wouldn't this be so much easier if we were just talking  We could have discussed this whole thread in 5 minutes, forums are funny that way.)

Yes it would be much easier! 


*Pardon the "s/he" "he/she" stuff. I'm trying to be very careful not to be identifying in any way.

[verenaerin]

Though perhaps you think she should be put away because of the danger she poses, not the crime she committed? Could you clarify?

I just want to be clear before I answer. Are you asking me if she should be put away as punishment vs. being put away simply because she is dangerous?

Yes.

Okay, I see. I'm not sure how to answer that because I don't know how much the Prozac factored into her crime. What's bothering me is that 15 year old females plotting and carrying out gruesome murders isn't exactly an everyday occurrence. It's very unusual, and it makes me suspect that something was extraordinarily wrong with her mind vs. "evil teenager". When I read she was on Prozac, my antennae *really* went up.

I've known some people on that stuff. Some of them seemed to be fine, but others underwent a complete personality change --in a bad way. Someone I know and love very much has been on the psychotropic drug merry-go-round for years trying to find a drug, or a combination of drugs, to help her/him deal with the crippling anxiety and depression that has been a constant companion. S/he has frequently described feelings of "out of control rage" that pop out out of nowhere. This rage so scares this person that s/he refuses to drive/go anywhere when he/she is in the midst of it.

(Wouldn't this be so much easier if we were just talking  We could have discussed this whole thread in 5 minutes, forums are funny that way.)

Yes it would be much easier! 

Thank you for clarifying. If there was a way to know, it would make things much easier to discuss. At this point it is an intellectual armchair debate.

Mental illness will always have a stigma. On one hand you have those that abuse it and use it as an excuse for everyone, thereby "cheapen" the term. On the other hand there are those that do not believe in it. They don't understand why someone can't just snap themselves out of it. I have great sympathy for these people.

[Warrenton]

I'd like to see the extent to which it was proven that her ability to restrain herself was impaired by Prozac. By the way, I'm a lawyer too, and by proven I don't mean "that which the jury eventually decides." 

At any rate, for a variety of reasons, I maintain that a death sentence would be more merciful than a life sentence.

A brother of the bar!  It could be a localism, but you leave me curious - what is meant by lawyers in your neck of the woods when they say "proven?"  Perhaps something more akin to scientific consensus? 

[Warrenton]

I don't think anyone is claiming that the Prozac is totally irrelevant; just if it's enough to make her less guilty in some way. She doesn't seem to be claiming that she can't remember what happened or had no control over her behavior, and if that's the case, she's still morally responsible.

I mean, if she did this while slightly drunk, would anyone be making the argument that she's not guilty of murder?

She could try, and it might play to a jury.  But she would run into the problem of "voluntary intoxication."  When someone gets intoxicated for fun, or even by accident, especially when the intoxication exceeds the legal limit, it is by operation of law not a defense, at least in my state.  Medications are treated differently, because one must take them to maintain health, and often, the side effects are less well known.  It is well known that PCP makes some people aggressive, cannabis makes people slow, and alcohol causes a variety of unusual behavior. 

[Warrenton]

Is there any precedence for this? In regards to a medication?

I would be surprised if there were not.  It has come up in the case of driving under the influence/driving while intoxicated cases.  By extension, it should apply to any crime, because the defense is going to be challenging the degree to which intent was formed and the degree to which the act was done with malice.

[Petertherock]

So now there is another story in the news about a mother who drowned one of her kids and tried to drown the other kid but the husband came home from the store and stopped her. One child is dead and the other is in grave condition. Why is there more sympathy for women who kill their children because of "depression" than there is for a young girl that was taking anti depressants that caused her to feel no emotion and was absolutely an extenuating factor in her crime? Why isn't there a cry for the death penalty for all these women killers?

[alphonsusjr]

I'd like to see the extent to which it was proven that her ability to restrain herself was impaired by Prozac. By the way, I'm a lawyer too, and by proven I don't mean "that which the jury eventually decides." 

At any rate, for a variety of reasons, I maintain that a death sentence would be more merciful than a life sentence.

A brother of the bar!  It could be a localism, but you leave me curious - what is meant by lawyers in your neck of the woods when they say "proven?"  Perhaps something more akin to scientific consensus? 

I don't dispute that lawyers think of "proven" as you say. But I'm not here willing to limit myself to this vulgar conception of it. I have very little faith in juries, especially in today's juries. This could relate to the fact that I have very little faith in "the people." At any rate, when I say "proven" here, I'm talking about pure objectivity, what the genuine reasonable observer would say about it - independently of what any jury might say. I seek to eliminate all subjectivity from the matter. Impossible, I know!

[alphonsusjr]

So now there is another story in the news about a mother who drowned one of her kids....Why isn't there a cry for the death penalty for all these women killers?

As a supporter of mercy, I'd support the death penalty for them.

[Warrenton]

But I'm not here willing to limit myself to this vulgar conception of it. I have very little faith in juries, especially in today's juries.

I understand!  I defined "proven" the way I did because I thought the post may have been drawing on a news report, where the legal use of "proved" is often abused.  I have had lawyers (not the kind on FE) tell me "you can't prove Jesus was the Son of God, so Christianity deserves no recognition by the government."  I have sometimes replied, "The witnesses I have for my case will be a lot more credible than yours."  

As to the legal meaning being "vulgar," they don't call them "common lawyers" for nothing!

[jovan66102]

So now there is another story in the news about a mother who drowned one of her kids....Why isn't there a cry for the death penalty for all these women killers?

As a supporter of mercy, I'd support the death penalty for them.

Agreed.