Traditionalism in France

[Aragon]

Has anyone had much interaction with French traditionalists? Or perhaps lived in France for a time. I've a French friend (devout Catholic) who says that over in France they're crazily political and often racist and aristocratic. When visiting a good portion of the literature in the bookstores was dedicated to politics and right wing parties were handing out pamphlets after Mass at both the diocesan and SSPX churches. Many hope for a "great Catholic monarch" coming from France and much of the traditional movement seemed to be bound up with a nostalgia for France's royal past. These are just my impressions from what I witnessed over a week in Paris and from talking to French Catholics.  I hope it's not true. Anyone have any experiences with this?

[verenaerin]

Has anyone had much interaction with French traditionalists? Or perhaps lived in France for a time. I've a French friend (devout Catholic) who says that over in France they're crazily political and often racist and aristocratic. When visiting a good portion of the literature in the bookstores was dedicated to politics and right wing parties were handing out pamphlets after Mass at both the diocesan and SSPX churches. Many hope for a "great Catholic monarch" coming from France and much of the traditional movement seemed to be bound up with a nostalgia for France's royal past. These are just my impressions from what I witnessed over a week in Paris and from talking to French Catholics.  I hope it's not true. Anyone have any experiences with this?

When you say racist, do you mean they are against anyone not French? Or is it more specific, say towards the Muslim population that seems prevalent there. Just curious.

[Vetus Ordo]

Why do you hope "it's not true"?

Traditional Catholicism in Europe has a strong political basis because politics are not divorced from religion, as the history of Christendom proves. It's only in the Anglosphere, given its recent Protestant history, that Catholicism is politically emasculated.

[Adelbrecht]

Has anyone had much interaction with French traditionalists? Or perhaps lived in France for a time. I've a French friend (devout Catholic) who says that over in France they're crazily political and often racist and aristocratic. When visiting a good portion of the literature in the bookstores was dedicated to politics and right wing parties were handing out pamphlets after Mass at both the diocesan and SSPX churches. Many hope for a "great Catholic monarch" coming from France and much of the traditional movement seemed to be bound up with a nostalgia for France's royal past. These are just my impressions from what I witnessed over a week in Paris and from talking to French Catholics.  I hope it's not true. Anyone have any experiences with this?

Well, I'm Belgian, I know some French traditionalists and I follow it bit. There's been some co-mingling with neonazism, because of the way the Vichy republic was organized. So, there are a few racist catholic groups, who seem to (ab)use Francoist symbolism. Dies Irae is the most notorious of those. They advocate civil war à la Turner Diaries. But they're the most extreme example, the other "racists" seem to be more religiously motivated (against Muslims instead of Arabs,against Jews as the religion). In today's political correct culture, of course, there is no difference...

And concerning aristocratic, I think it's quite common for traditional Catholics to be somewhat elitist. I think it's because of the polarisation that defines the Church these times.

And political: catholicism IS political. The Church has social teachings, the Church has moral teachings. Why shouldn't they want to restore the monarchy?

[vakarian]

Has anyone had much interaction with French traditionalists? Or perhaps lived in France for a time. I've a French friend (devout Catholic) who says that over in France they're crazily political and often racist and aristocratic. When visiting a good portion of the literature in the bookstores was dedicated to politics and right wing parties were handing out pamphlets after Mass at both the diocesan and SSPX churches. Many hope for a "great Catholic monarch" coming from France and much of the traditional movement seemed to be bound up with a nostalgia for France's royal past. These are just my impressions from what I witnessed over a week in Paris and from talking to French Catholics.  I hope it's not true. Anyone have any experiences with this?

Would that more Catholics had such backbone as these French and that less would engage in hand-wringing and political-correctness.

I do have a traditionalist catholic friend from France. She is sedevacantist, rather right-wing, and one of the finest Catholics I know.

[Aragon]

Why do you hope "it's not true"?

Traditional Catholicism in Europe has a strong political basis because politics are not divorced from religion, as the history of Christendom proves. It's only in the Anglosphere, given its recent Protestant history, that Catholicism is politically emasculated.

What I mean is that I hope people's reasons for being a traditionalist Catholic go deeper than having a fetish for the grandeur of the Bourbon monarchy and dislike of foreigners. I have no problem with Catholics seeking to re-establish the social reign of Christ the King.

[newyorkcatholic]

Why do you hope "it's not true"?

Traditional Catholicism in Europe has a strong political basis because politics are not divorced from religion, as the history of Christendom proves. It's only in the Anglosphere, given its recent Protestant history, that Catholicism is politically emasculated.

What I mean is that I hope people's reasons for being a traditionalist Catholic go deeper than having a fetish for the grandeur of the Bourbon monarchy and dislike of foreigners. I have no problem with Catholics seeking to re-establish the social reign of Christ the King.

I hear you.  Catholics can be political, but I'd also like to know if it really is true that French trads will not just have issues about Catholic vs secular vs Muslim (obviously we should all care about this distinction) but will they be concerned about French vs not French, white vs brown, and so on.

I am a brown man, and if a trad group doesn't want me around I'd like to know that ahead of time, lol.

[Vetus Ordo]

Why do you hope "it's not true"?

Traditional Catholicism in Europe has a strong political basis because politics are not divorced from religion, as the history of Christendom proves. It's only in the Anglosphere, given its recent Protestant history, that Catholicism is politically emasculated.

What I mean is that I hope people's reasons for being a traditionalist Catholic go deeper than having a fetish for the grandeur of the Bourbon monarchy and dislike of foreigners. I have no problem with Catholics seeking to re-establish the social reign of Christ the King.

There are no fetishes involved.

The "grandeur of the Bourbon monarchy" is inexorably linked with the social reign of Christ the King. These things aren't really separate when it comes to Catholic countries such as France. The same phenomenon happens in Spain, Portugal and even Italy.

As for the dislike of foreigners, you must realise that France has a huge problem concerning Muslim immigration, so these reactions are inevitable. And I'd say that all great nations dislike or are suspicious of foreigners in one way or another. It's a natural human instinct.

[newyorkcatholic]

Why do you hope "it's not true"?

Traditional Catholicism in Europe has a strong political basis because politics are not divorced from religion, as the history of Christendom proves. It's only in the Anglosphere, given its recent Protestant history, that Catholicism is politically emasculated.

What I mean is that I hope people's reasons for being a traditionalist Catholic go deeper than having a fetish for the grandeur of the Bourbon monarchy and dislike of foreigners. I have no problem with Catholics seeking to re-establish the social reign of Christ the King.

There are no fetishes involved.

The "grandeur of the Bourbon monarchy" is inexorably linked with the social reign of Christ the King. These things aren't really separate when it comes to Catholic countries such as France. The same phenomenon happens in Spain, Portugal and even Italy.

As for the dislike of foreigners, you must realise that France has a huge problem concerning Muslim immigration, so these reactions are inevitable. And I'd say that all great nations dislike or are suspicious of foreigners in one way or another. It's a natural human instinct.

All valid.

I still say that if a group doesn't want brown people, I'd like to know ahead of time so I don't go there.  Sociological analysis of the inevitability of their reaction can be conducted apart from this.

[Graham]

Why do you hope "it's not true"?

Traditional Catholicism in Europe has a strong political basis because politics are not divorced from religion, as the history of Christendom proves. It's only in the Anglosphere, given its recent Protestant history, that Catholicism is politically emasculated.

What I mean is that I hope people's reasons for being a traditionalist Catholic go deeper than having a fetish for the grandeur of the Bourbon monarchy and dislike of foreigners. I have no problem with Catholics seeking to re-establish the social reign of Christ the King.

If those were their only reasons they would probably join neo-pagan European New Right groups, of which there are plenty in France, rather than stick with an institution that's avowedly universal and which demands a fairly strict moral discipline. It's more likely that most of them are faithful Catholics.

Oh, and I object to your dismissing their monarchical and national ideals as "fetishes", since those ideals have a profound natural goodness to them even in non-Christian lands.