Traditionalism in France

[Vetus Ordo]

Why do you hope "it's not true"?

Traditional Catholicism in Europe has a strong political basis because politics are not divorced from religion, as the history of Christendom proves. It's only in the Anglosphere, given its recent Protestant history, that Catholicism is politically emasculated.

What I mean is that I hope people's reasons for being a traditionalist Catholic go deeper than having a fetish for the grandeur of the Bourbon monarchy and dislike of foreigners. I have no problem with Catholics seeking to re-establish the social reign of Christ the King.

There are no fetishes involved.

The "grandeur of the Bourbon monarchy" is inexorably linked with the social reign of Christ the King. These things aren't really separate when it comes to Catholic countries such as France. The same phenomenon happens in Spain, Portugal and even Italy.

As for the dislike of foreigners, you must realise that France has a huge problem concerning Muslim immigration, so these reactions are inevitable. And I'd say that all great nations dislike or are suspicious of foreigners in one way or another. It's a natural human instinct.

All valid.

I still say that if a group doesn't want brown people, I'd like to know ahead of time so I don't go there.  Sociological analysis of the inevitability of their reaction can be conducted apart from this.

There are no racial problems that I know of. France was a colonial nation and colonial nations, despite the issues with slavery, usually developped a larger tolerance to different races.

[Old Salt]

I wish more countries had this "problem".

[Phillipus Iacobus]

The reason why traditionalists in France tend to be monarchists is the same reason trads in the US are paleoconservatives and Ron Paul conservatives; they seek to go back and restore a better social order. France had a completely Catholic regime and political order, and they thus want to restore that.

[Warrenton]

I wish more countries had this "problem".

The issue is not so much with the color of a person's skin, that with the affinity that the person has for the existing culture.  If Algerians, upon moving to France, converted to Catholicism, supported the Church, and supported French culture, then they would be accepted.  However, there is a notion that governments pass off these days that the people of the country should welcome aliens, and should readily agree to the destruction of their culture and beliefs, in the name of economic necessity and tolerance.  It is the final act of governments which have defined themselves as the country - l'etat c'est nous.  It is tyranny.

[Vetus Ordo]

I wish more countries had this "problem".

The issue is not so much with the color of a person's skin, that with the affinity that the person has for the existing culture.  If Algerians, upon moving to France, converted to Catholicism, supported the Church, and supported French culture, then they would be accepted.  However, there is a notion that governments pass off these days that the people of the country should welcome aliens, and should readily agree to the destruction of their culture and beliefs, in the name of economic necessity and tolerance.  It is the final act of governments which have defined themselves as the country - l'etat c'est nous.  It is tyranny.

This is true.

[tmw89]

How are the Trad and Monarchist movements perceived by most French today, anyway?  I'm already guessing it's fringe at best, but with the impending Eurozone collapse... does it seem AT ALL viable, or more like a perpetual lost cause (maybe not the right turn of phrase, but something like that)?

[Freudentaumel]

Has anyone had much interaction with French traditionalists? Or perhaps lived in France for a time. I've a French friend (devout Catholic) who says that over in France they're crazily political and often racist and aristocratic. When visiting a good portion of the literature in the bookstores was dedicated to politics and right wing parties were handing out pamphlets after Mass at both the diocesan and SSPX churches. Many hope for a "great Catholic monarch" coming from France and much of the traditional movement seemed to be bound up with a nostalgia for France's royal past. These are just my impressions from what I witnessed over a week in Paris and from talking to French Catholics.  I hope it's not true. Anyone have any experiences with this?

I think you are mixing two things together, which have nothing to do with each other, monarchism and racism.

As for monarchism, yes, a large portion of French Trads are monarchists. That has historical reasons. France has switched between being a republic and a monarchy several times, and the monarchies (excepting Napoleon) have always been Catholic, while the republics have always been and continue to be virulently anti-catholic. The first republic massacred Catholics en masse; in the beginning of the twentieth century, the French republic confiscated all Church property (and keeps it until today) and threw the monks out of their monasteries at gun-point. Even today the French parliament is dominated by Free-Masons (this is not a conspiracy theory, a French mason proudly told me so personally). In the current presidential campaign the socialist contender, Francois Hollande, promises to remove the special status of the Church in Alsace-Lorraine (which was spared the secularization at the beginning of the 20th century, because it belonged to Germany back then). So, in my book, it is no wonder that French trads are often monarchists - and there is nothing wrong with it. The novel "Sire" by Jean Raspail gives a good introduction into the French Trad mindset. In Germany this phenomenon doesn't exist, because historically the last German monarchy was anti-Catholic, while in the Weimar republic that came after it, the Church was in a much better situation.

As for racism, I have never experienced that, although I'll grant that my experience is limited. At the Chartres pilgrimage, there are black pilgrims, there are black scouts in the French Trad scouting organizations and there are black French priests in the FSSP, so I don't know where the racism should hide. As for the group Dies Irae that has been mentioned, this was a group of less about 10 young guys with nothing to do that trained fighting against arab muslims that they believed would take power sooner or later - and possibly they weren't too wrong with that. The French Media used this as a hit-piece against Trads, you can watch the documentary on Gloria TV.

[Vetus Ordo]

How are the Trad and Monarchist movements perceived by most French today, anyway?  I'm already guessing it's fringe at best, but with the impending Eurozone collapse... does it seem AT ALL viable, or more like a perpetual lost cause (maybe not the right turn of phrase, but something like that)?

Actually, traditional Catholicism in France is clearly faring way above the rest in Europe in terms of numbers and vitaly. Only the US trads match them. The monarchist movement is also one of the most solid in the whole world, IMO. They have lots of young people and good resources. You see, France is a country of deep contrasts: it harbours both fierce Catholics and rabid secularists.

[Parmandur]

Is there a viable candidate for king of France?  I know that there are those who can make a claim, whether Bourbon or Bonaparte, but is there a solid one to be made?

[Adelbrecht]

Is there a viable candidate for king of France?  I know that there are those who can make a claim, whether Bourbon or Bonaparte, but is there a solid one to be made?

Louis Alphonse is the legitimist pretender, and there's Henri d'Orléans, the Orléanist (and Unionist) pretender.