Grasshopper
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Location: Madison, WI, USA
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« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2012, 01:25:PM » |
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I don't know about sown up. Their are still questions surrounding Smith.
Everybody keeps saying that. Well, he hasn't exactly been a great QB. He made an unexpected improvement this year (which was sort of a microcosm for SF in general), but he has a long way to go to catch up to the sort of level that your usual Super Bowl winning QB generally plays at. Eli didn't really have that kind of year either. Or Dilfer. DEFENSE. Two things will win you a superbowl: defense, and a quarterback who doesn't make mistakes for one game. If you get to the superbowl and have those two things, you'll never lose. Ever. As you might recall, I didn't exactly jump on the "Eli Manning is an elite QB now" bandwagon -- but he actually did have a pretty good season -- much better than any season Dilfer ever had. As for your final assertion, I disagree. What if you have those two things, but the opposing team has them to a greater degree than you do? What if the two greatest teams in the history of football meet in the Super Bowl? One of them is going to lose. There is no magic formula to guarantee a Super Bowl win. You don't even have to be the better team. You just have to be good enough to get there, and then play a better game than your opponent. Good teams can have bad days, and mediocre teams can have good days. In the Super Bowl, as in any other game, it is possible for an inferior team to beat a superior team. One game really proves nothing -- no matter what grandiose title you give it. |
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Grasshopper
Gold Fish
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Location: Madison, WI, USA
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« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2012, 01:32:PM » |
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Well, Matt Hassleback won a superbowl and he wasn't elite by any means, he's barely better than Dilfer if that. Brad Johnson, too. And don't forget Doug Williams back in the 80's. It's not common, but it's more than an anamoly I think.
I agree with your general point here. There have actually been quite a few mediocre quarterbacks that managed to win Super Bowls. Even some legendary names like Joe Namath and Ken Stabler really weren't that great if you look at their regular-season stats. They were just in the right place at the right time. But I'm pretty sure that Matt Hassleback never won a Super Bowl. He played in one, but I'm pretty sure Seattle lost that game. So you can't really use him, unless we change the subject to quarterbacks who only made it to the Super Bowl. And then we can add a whole new group of mediocre quarterbacks. |
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Grasshopper
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« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2012, 01:38:PM » |
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My point is simply this: Smith improved this year, but he'll have to improve again for the Niners to reach the Super Bowl.
I hear you, and I am not an Alex Smith believer, but, you have to admit, if Kyle Williams runs away from that punt, they reach the Super Bowl. Good point. Whatever one says about the 49ers, they went into overtime with the team that ended up winning the Super Bowl, and might have won if it weren't for two (not just one, but two) muffed punts. On the evidence of that game, they are every bit as good as the Giants. So who's to say they aren't good enough to win the Super Bowl? You don't have to score a lot of points if you have a great defense. The undefeated 1972 Dolphins only scored 14 points in their Super Bowl win. It was enough. And if you're tempted to say that things are different now, recall that in Eli Manning's first Super Bowl win (just a few years ago), the Giants scored a whopping 17 points -- and they were up against one of the greatest offenses ever. |
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Walty
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« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2012, 02:22:PM » |
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My point is simply this: Smith improved this year, but he'll have to improve again for the Niners to reach the Super Bowl.
I hear you, and I am not an Alex Smith believer, but, you have to admit, if Kyle Williams runs away from that punt, they reach the Super Bowl. Well, it would have certainly appeared that way, but there's no way of knowing for sure. I still stand by my assertion. It's possible that the Niners could win a SB with Smith playing as is, but it's not likely. |
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The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes;
she is tolerant in practice because she loves.
The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe;
they are intolerant in practice because they do not love. Timorem Domini docebo vos. |
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Walty
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« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2012, 02:25:PM » |
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Well, Matt Hassleback won a superbowl and he wasn't elite by any means, he's barely better than Dilfer if that. Brad Johnson, too. And don't forget Doug Williams back in the 80's. It's not common, but it's more than an anamoly I think.
I agree with your general point here. There have actually been quite a few mediocre quarterbacks that managed to win Super Bowls. Even some legendary names like Joe Namath and Ken Stabler really weren't that great if you look at their regular-season stats. They were just in the right place at the right time. But I'm pretty sure that Matt Hassleback never won a Super Bowl. He played in one, but I'm pretty sure Seattle lost that game. So you can't really use him, unless we change the subject to quarterbacks who only made it to the Super Bowl. And then we can add a whole new group of mediocre quarterbacks. I didn't notice that. I thought we were only talking about QBs that made it to the dance. But yeah, Hasselbeck never won a Super Bowl. He got beat by the Steelers. |
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The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes;
she is tolerant in practice because she loves.
The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe;
they are intolerant in practice because they do not love. Timorem Domini docebo vos. |
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Walty
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« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2012, 02:37:PM » |
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Let's actually look at the QBs who have won Super Bowls over the past few decades.
Eli Manning
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees
Ben Roethlisberger
Eli Manning
Peyton Manning
Ben Roethlisberger
Tom Brady
Tom Brady
Brad Johnson
Tom Brady
Trent Dilfer
Kurt Warner
John Elway
JohnElway
Brett Favre
Troy Aikman
Steve Young
Troy Aikman
Troy Aikman
Mark Rypien
Jeff Hostetler
Joe Montana
Joe Montana
I've bolded the guys who I would consider as mediocre who won a ring. Hostetler doesn't count because he wasn't the starter and simply stepped in for a Simms' injury late in the season.
That's 3 guys out of the past 24 seasons or so. What we see is a definite pattern of big name, MVP-type elite QBs winning year in and year out with the rare interjection of a mediocre guy.
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The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes;
she is tolerant in practice because she loves.
The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe;
they are intolerant in practice because they do not love. Timorem Domini docebo vos. |
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Walty
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Posts: 14,503
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« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2012, 03:06:PM » |
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Free agency is officially open. The first big splash is Miami trading Brandon Marshall to Chicago.
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The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes;
she is tolerant in practice because she loves.
The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe;
they are intolerant in practice because they do not love. Timorem Domini docebo vos. |
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HuskerTom
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« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2012, 08:13:PM » |
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I've bolded the guys who I would consider as mediocre who won a ring. Hostetler doesn't count because he wasn't the starter and simply stepped in for a Simms' injury late in the season.
That's 3 guys out of the past 24 seasons or so. What we see is a definite pattern of big name, MVP-type elite QBs winning year in and year out with the rare interjection of a mediocre guy.
I notice you cut your list off right before Doug Williams, Phil Simms, and Jim McMahon. Simms was MVP-caliber, but the other two (esp. Williams) would not be considered top QBs. That being said, the pattern certainly does speak for itself. Unless you've got an unbelievable/unstoppable defense, you'd better have a gunslinger under center. Though slightly off-topic, I hate the words "elite" and "dynasty" and other stupid words that sports pundits try to make the public use to find things to argue about. Who cares if Eli Manning is "elite"? The guy's won 2 Super Bowls, and though I personally don't like him, you can't argue with that. And don't get me started on the "Greatest of All Time" debates, where they try to compare players from the 70s with players from today as if the game hasn't COMPLETELY changed over those years. Sorry for the rant... |
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"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent." -- St. John of the Cross
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Phillipus Iacobus
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« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2012, 08:15:PM » |
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Most of those guys on the list are either HoFers or potential HoFers.
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Walty
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« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2012, 02:51:AM » |
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I've bolded the guys who I would consider as mediocre who won a ring. Hostetler doesn't count because he wasn't the starter and simply stepped in for a Simms' injury late in the season.
That's 3 guys out of the past 24 seasons or so. What we see is a definite pattern of big name, MVP-type elite QBs winning year in and year out with the rare interjection of a mediocre guy.
I notice you cut your list off right before Doug Williams, Phil Simms, and Jim McMahon. Simms was MVP-caliber, but the other two (esp. Williams) would not be considered top QBs. That being said, the pattern certainly does speak for itself. Unless you've got an unbelievable/unstoppable defense, you'd better have a gunslinger under center. Though slightly off-topic, I hate the words "elite" and "dynasty" and other stupid words that sports pundits try to make the public use to find things to argue about. Who cares if Eli Manning is "elite"? The guy's won 2 Super Bowls, and though I personally don't like him, you can't argue with that. And don't get me started on the "Greatest of All Time" debates, where they try to compare players from the 70s with players from today as if the game hasn't COMPLETELY changed over those years. Sorry for the rant... I did cut it off before Williams, but mostly because I didn't feel qualified to discuss whether he was merely mediocre or not. At this point, we're getting into football when I was just a babe. But Simms was a very good QB, and McMahon was certainly above mediocre, at least for a few years. He was probably the biggest dumbass on the list though. |
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The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes;
she is tolerant in practice because she loves.
The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe;
they are intolerant in practice because they do not love. Timorem Domini docebo vos. |
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