SHould non-Catholic women even be considered?

[Phillipus Iacobus]

Its not necessary, but it makes everything difficult. The Faith influences everything, such how the couple will view education, financial affairs, and so much more. Ironically, two much older trads that I know, who grew up before VII, probably followed the Revolution until they grew disenchanted with it, married liberal protestants. Unlike most of the Catholics in my family and who I know (most NO), these two examples had long marriages - one's wife recently passed away. However, should longevity and lack of separation and divorce be considered a success? Their children, for all intents and purposes, are not traditionalists, and the one whose wife is still alive has stopped attending Mass for quite some time, to "spend time" with his wife since they are both working away from home during the week. This is in spite of having a true Mass in his own city.

One of my great-grandmothers was an incredibly faithful and pious women, but as far as I can tell, my great-grandpa was not, and the effects can be seen, as on that side of my family very few are religious at all. On the other side, my grandparents are quite religious and became tertiary Franciscans 50+ years ago, and while they went along with VII as 99% of the faithful did, most on this side of the family are not that religious. There are a few who go to church and try to live decently, but they aren't fervent Catholics. The only one's with zeal have fallen into evangelicalism.

[Serva_Ancillae]

Before my "tradversion", I would have said that if the other party appeared to be on the path to conversion, then maybe it would be okay to date non-Catholics. But being more familiar with the mind of the Church on the question now, I realise it's actually a big no-no.

 As others have said, you should never start keeping company with someone if they're not what you want in a spouse in the here and now. It's most imprudent to carry on dating and being engaged for very long (I'd say, a year from starting to court to getting married), so it's keeping yourself in an unnecessary occasion of sin to prolong courting  while you wait around for the person to convert before you can marry. By all means, keep your eye on someone from a distance and snap them up if/when they do convert (I know a guy who did this. How romantic!). But I don't think it's appropriate to date them.

I also think it would be imprudent, possibly sinful, to put yourself in the position of dating someone whose views on chastity aren't in line with traditional Catholic thinking (this sermon helped clarify that for me: http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20060806-Occasions-of-Sin-and-Company-Keeping.html). Forget no extramarital relations; how many young people are going to understand no passionate kissing, little time alone together, etc. They may agree to those things because they like you, but when push comes to shove it's unlikely many would uphold moral beliefs they themselves don't prescribe to. You definately want to be helping each other, not dragging each other down.

I don't feel I've expressed myself very clearly but I thought I'd throw in some authoritative quotes about the evils of mixed marriages to help clarify how you wouldn't want to end up deeply emotionally attached to someone who you shouldn't (even couldn't) actually marry:

Regarding mixed marriages between Catholics and non-Catholics [i.e., valid, but illicit without the required conditions —Ed.], Pope Clement XI wrote, "The Church abhors such marriages, which greatly endanger and deform the spirit" (June 25, 1706).

In Matrimonia Quae in Locis (Nov. 4, 1741) Benedict XIV spoke of "sacrilegious unions," of "detestable marriages, always…condemned and prohibited by Holy Mother Church." And Pope Pius VI wrote, "This type of conduct gives rise to the danger of perverting the Catholic party…We cannot abandon our position because we do not have the right to do so" (Letter to the Archbishop of Malines, July, 1782)....

The Church has always abhorred marriages between Catholics and heretics and has always prohibited them with very severe laws because they always conceal the grave danger of perversion and estrangement from the faith of the Catholic spouse, and because the Catholic education of the children of both sexes is always doubtful and suspect. (Letter to the Archbishop of Mayence, Oct. 8, 1803)The Church has always abhorred marriages between Catholics and heretics and has always prohibited them with very severe laws because they always conceal the grave danger of perversion and estrangement from the faith of the Catholic spouse, and because the Catholic education of the children of both sexes is always doubtful and suspect. ([Pope Pius VII], Letter to the Archbishop of Mayence, Oct. 8, 1803)

In no way can tolerance [of such marriages] be seen as their being approved and allowed. Rather, such marriages are only tolerated out of the need to avoid even greater evils, and permission is not given wholeheartedly.

The Church Fathers had already recognized that in such marriages there is no image of Christ’s union with His Church, but rather an image of Christ’s own being prostituted. (See Tertullian, Ad uxorem, 2, 3-4; St. Ambrose, Ep. 19,7; St. Jerome, Adv.Lovin. 1,10; St. Augustine, De fide et oper. 19,38).

http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/okaying_mixed_marriages.htm

And yes, I have known mixed marriages where one person converted. From my experience, often the Catholic party wasn't all that fervent to start with and the converted party ends up more devout. I wouldn't like to think what state the Catholic parties would be in if their wives hadn't converted. My sister solemnized a mixed marriage before our return to tradition and it's not a situation I would recommend putting yourself in. I'm soooo glad I married a good Catholic! I know it sounds cliche, but marriage is hard enough without throwing that spanner in the works. God makes you one person, yes, but you still have to work at being of one heart and one mind.

[kgreen]

My husband grew up traditional Catholic, never in his life attended a novus ordo Mass. He was in the seminary for 3 years. I grew up with no religion at all, was never baptized, but was always searching for the truth. We met and clicked immediately. I did convert, and we have a wonderful marriage. I know of at least three other men who were in the seminary at the same time as my husband who married converts. I know a ton of women who converted and in many ways are better Catholics (don't want to say "better" but don't know how else to say it..?) than the ones who grew up Catholic. God made us all and gave us all sufficient grace to save our souls. If you meet someone of goodwill who is in search of the truth, it shouldn't matter if they are Catholic or not to start out because once they see the truth and goodness of it they will convert. If you've had nothing but hopelessness all your life, when you finally see the goodness of the Church you embrace it with all you have because you never want to go back to that hopelessness. You do not ever take it for granted like some may who have grown up in the Church and never knew anything else. In some ways, it may be unfair to deny nonCatholic women the privilege of knowing you and coming to know the Church.

[Serva_Ancillae]

On the other side of the same coin, though, you have the Catholic parties who are so blinded by their attraction to and affection for the other person that they *think* they see a search for truth and willingness to convert and end up marrying the person before they convert, only to find later that they married someone who was happily athiest and indifferent.

It happens both ways and is too much of a gamble with your own soul and those of your children to date someone before they convert. As the quotes from the popes above make abundantly clear, mixed marriages are abhorrent to the Church and only very reluctantly tolerated for just reasons (the reasons for dispensations our priest gave were things like already having children together or the fact that the couple would try to marry outside the Church if refused the dispensation. Father said in cases where dispensations are given for less serious reasons, the validity of the dispensations -- and thus, also, of the marriages -- is doubtful). I realise that's a painful idea to those in such marriages but painful or not, that seems to be the truth of the matter.

Like Medjugorje, you can't take some of the good that has come, apparently, from the situation as proof that it is in itself a good thing. God can bring good out of evil but it's still evil.

[JoniCath]

For dating (with marriage as the goal), that is.  At least people in the NO can be more easily converted but I would think that it would be very difficult to get a Protestant to be convinced of the traditional Catholic faith.

Does anyone have some real-life experience to share?
[/quote

Oh YES!! One of my sons married a non-Catholic. Now, before the wedding she was attending Mass with my son, she wanted her own rosary, etc. She wanted  a Catholic wedding, everything seemed fine. Then my son bought her engagement ring & she put a piece in the paper announcing that they were engaged & that the wedding would be held on June 15, at the First Baptist Church on tenth & Charles street. When my son asked her "what in the world did you put that location in the paper, she said that  a friend had taken her there & it was much PRETTIER than the Catholic Church they'd been attending. Plus, the preacher was a good friend of the family.

He had to fight like the devil in order to have his two children Baptized. After 15 yrs., of an marriage that was both sinful & terribly painful for my son & my whole family they are divorced & he's seeking an annulment,

[kgreen]

I agree with not marrying someone who has not converted, but to not give someone of goodwill the chance to convert by getting to know each other doesn't seem right either. I know it is few and far between but there are people in this world who are unhappy with their faithless lives and are desperately searching for the truth; they just don't know where to find it. Maybe be friends before dating even and always be very open about your faith and church teaching. Maybe even have this person go to Mass with you, if you are interested in them, before you even go on a date. My husband and I were going to Mass together every Sunday for a while before we got married. Watch for signs that this person may be different from the rest. To not consider dating someone just because they aren't Catholic right now seems a little judgmental. Some of the best Catholics didn't start out that way. Look at St Paul, St Augustine, St Ignatius, the Apostles even, for example. Do not underestimate the grace of God. Be friends before dating, date for a while before marrying. But do not believe it is impossible for someone to convert from worldliness because there is just way too much evidence against that.

[Phillipus Iacobus]

For the few good stories I've heard of spousal conversions or even conversions of both of the spouses to Catholicism (traditional), I have heard of, read about, and sometimes personally seen disastrous marriages. True some maybe purely hearsay, but even when two solid Catholics marry, transmitting the Faith to the children and having children, optimally even grandchildren, who practice the Faith.

[kgreen]

On the same token I have seen disastrous marriages of two traditional Catholics. The woman gets overburdened with the kids, has never experienced the world, and starts to try to go out and see what she's missing. My husband has a couple friends who are having this problem with their wife right now and it's not pretty. At least with someone who's already experienced that, they know better than to try to go back to that. Not arguing, just making the point, I think there shouldn't be an overall rule at all (except for the rule about mixed marriages;that's a good rule) , but each individual decides their individual case.

[ggreg]

I was thinking more along the lines of dating, then marrying after her conversion.

Trouble is she might "convert" just to keep you happy.  It happens.

An insincere conversion is almost worse than no conversion.

[ggreg]

I was seeing a non-Catholic girl over December and January. I told her that we couldn't continue dating because our beliefs were too different. And I said we could be friends. She shot back defensively that she was never interested in me as a friend and never would be. I was like, "so you just want my body?" Man, I must have an awful personality if girls just want to have sex with me and nothing else! It's an odd 'role reversal' out there for Catholic men dating non-Catholic women, since they're the ones after sex, and we're the ones after love.

Strangely this has never happened to me.