Parmandur
Member
Gender: 
Posts: 3,360
|
|
« Reply #230 on: March 20, 2012, 04:24:PM » |
|
Yes, he was excommunicated for doing the job he vowed and swore an oath to do when he himself was ordained - which, thanks to the NO, for the first time rendered him disobedient - even after performing the same ordinations "who knows" how many times over the years prior to then.
Like +Williamson said - follow truth or follow authority, once again +ABL provided the example for us that when it comes right down to it, it is not possible to follow both so long as the NO is in authority - it is truth that we are bound to follow above all else.
Don't be so naive as to think that he would have been excommunicated if he ordained the NO way. It is tradition the NO hates - always remember that.
He was ordered directly by the authority he was bound to, to not proceed. There was no immediate necessity for what he did; the Pope claimed to make a place for him, and he had no right to assume otherwise. He proceeded anyway, and never repented. That is bad, very bad. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 06:37:PM by Parmandur »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Nic
Knight of the Cruciform Sword
Member
Gender:
Location: near Rolla, MO
Personality type: ...strange
Posts: 2,134
In Hoc Signo Vinces.
|
|
« Reply #231 on: March 20, 2012, 06:34:PM » |
|
Do you think it is easy for me not to have a regular parish life at my local "Catholic" parish? Do you think I enjoy purchasing costly gasoline to drive 4.5 hours round-trip to attend a true Catholic Mass?
I was thinking about this. When people who are deprived of access to the TLM share their stories, it helps me to better appreciate how much I have been blessed in being able to attend. Thank you for helping me this way. I prayed for you. Thank you, Jayne.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."
--Ephesians 6:12
Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."
--St. Athanasius
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
--Darth Vader
-- God Bless the SSPX.
|
|
|
Nic
Knight of the Cruciform Sword
Member
Gender:
Location: near Rolla, MO
Personality type: ...strange
Posts: 2,134
In Hoc Signo Vinces.
|
|
« Reply #232 on: March 20, 2012, 06:39:PM » |
|
He was ordered directly by his Ordinary to not proceed. He proceeded anyway, and never repented. That is bad, very bad.
So if his Ordinary ordered him to make a sacrifice to Satan and he refused, would that also be "bad, very bad." Blind obedience is never the answer - there are indeed times when one has to ignore, resist and yes, even disobey the men who hold leadership positions and obey the will of God because the two are at odds with each other. The judgment call that Archbishop Lefebvre made was obviously the correct one - and I firmly believe he will be made a saint one day for doing what he did. Actually, from what I have gathered from Church history and previous crises, the only way that this great man won't be made a saint someday is if the sedevacantist position turns out to be right and Archbishop Lefebvre was just another confused clergyman amidst the revolution of initiation of the counter-church. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 06:43:PM by Nic »
|
Logged
|
"For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."
--Ephesians 6:12
Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."
--St. Athanasius
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
--Darth Vader
-- God Bless the SSPX.
|
|
|
Parmandur
Member
Gender:
Posts: 3,360
|
|
« Reply #233 on: March 20, 2012, 06:41:PM » |
|
The word "obviously" means that nobody can disagree. Many disagree with this action, so it is hardly obvious.
And comparing "do not illegally consecrate rogue bishops" with "make a sacrifice to Satan" is a ridiculous comparison on the face of it.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Phillipus Iacobus
Blue Fish
Gender:
Posts: 11,297
|
|
« Reply #234 on: March 20, 2012, 06:42:PM » |
|
This is something that I think many trads have to deal with. Travelling and gas aside is the lack of a normal parish life. 50 years ago, most of us could walk to nearest Church, choose an early Mass or a later one, and enjoy a normal parish life. This means a school, friends and relatives at the same church, and even something as simple as an ice cream social or bingo night.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 01:23:AM by Crusader_Philly »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nic
Knight of the Cruciform Sword
Member
Gender:
Location: near Rolla, MO
Personality type: ...strange
Posts: 2,134
In Hoc Signo Vinces.
|
|
« Reply #235 on: March 20, 2012, 06:45:PM » |
|
The word "obviously" means that nobody can disagree. Many disagree with this action, so it is hardly obvious.
And comparing "do not illegally consecrate rogue bishops" with "make a sacrifice to Satan" is a ridiculous comparison on the face of it.
They disagree because they lack common sense or their heads are buried so far in the sand that they just simply refuse to see it. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."
--Ephesians 6:12
Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."
--St. Athanasius
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
--Darth Vader
-- God Bless the SSPX.
|
|
|
|
mga
Member
Posts: 22
|
|
« Reply #236 on: March 20, 2012, 11:48:PM » |
|
Really, what it comes down to is this - is the New Mass the one True Mass of All Time? The answer to that is NO, it is not! - it was not promulgated or written through the Teaching Magisterium of Eternal Rome, Holy Mother Church... It was invented by Paul VI along with heretics ( Protestant Ministers who wanted to jump in on the "Family meeting" where they obviously did not belong) about 50 years ago and not promulgated as a Official Teaching of the Church( how can you have a true Mass and not declare it as part of the Teaching Magisterium?answer: it is not a true Mass/ teaching of the Eternal Church). Whether it is Valid or not is really beyond anyone, and at any rate, the matter at hand is that they indisputably vulgarized the most Holy Sacrifice of God( ie, clown/hippie Messes, condemned vulgar(also called vernacular) language usage) - Something NO AUTHORITY has the right to do, and in Catholic terms, not even God has the right to do as this would be a contradiction to His Perfect Nature.... As for the individuals who believe that simply because Christ is truly present it is meritorious, Think about the black Masses said by rogue priests... He is Present there-- are these pleasing/meritorious? And yes, the Novus Ordo Mess( yes, not Mass-- a Mass has Sacrifice (on Altar) and Reverence<- The N.O. lacks both) is tantamount to a Satanic Mass, if not worse, as it subverts the Eternal teachings of Mother Church under the guise of Catholicism, which is exactly what the Modernist Heresy is which Pope St. Pius condemned as the Synthesis of all heresy.. at least those attending a Black Mass know its evil.. the Novus Ordo tricks people into believing it is good(somehow?) while undermining God's law just like the Pharisees whom Our Lord condemned.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Parmandur
Member
Gender:
Posts: 3,360
|
|
« Reply #237 on: March 21, 2012, 01:17:AM » |
|
The word "obviously" means that nobody can disagree. Many disagree with this action, so it is hardly obvious.
And comparing "do not illegally consecrate rogue bishops" with "make a sacrifice to Satan" is a ridiculous comparison on the face of it.
They disagree because they lack common sense or their heads are buried so far in the sand that they just simply refuse to see it. That's fallacious. You are not being rational. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Stubborn
Member
Gender:
Posts: 5,017
|
|
« Reply #238 on: March 21, 2012, 05:18:AM » |
|
Really, what it comes down to is this - is the New Mass the one True Mass of All Time? The answer to that is NO, it is not! - it was not promulgated or written through the Teaching Magisterium of Eternal Rome, Holy Mother Church... It was invented by Paul VI along with heretics ( Protestant Ministers who wanted to jump in on the "Family meeting" where they obviously did not belong) about 50 years ago and not promulgated as a Official Teaching of the Church( how can you have a true Mass and not declare it as part of the Teaching Magisterium?answer: it is not a true Mass/ teaching of the Eternal Church). Whether it is Valid or not is really beyond anyone, and at any rate, the matter at hand is that they indisputably vulgarized the most Holy Sacrifice of God( ie, clown/hippie Messes, condemned vulgar(also called vernacular) language usage) - Something NO AUTHORITY has the right to do, and in Catholic terms, not even God has the right to do as this would be a contradiction to His Perfect Nature.... As for the individuals who believe that simply because Christ is truly present it is meritorious, Think about the black Masses said by rogue priests... He is Present there-- are these pleasing/meritorious? And yes, the Novus Ordo Mess( yes, not Mass-- a Mass has Sacrifice (on Altar) and Reverence<- The N.O. lacks both) is tantamount to a Satanic Mass, if not worse, as it subverts the Eternal teachings of Mother Church under the guise of Catholicism, which is exactly what the Modernist Heresy is which Pope St. Pius condemned as the Synthesis of all heresy.. at least those attending a Black Mass know its evil.. the Novus Ordo tricks people into believing it is good(somehow?) while undermining God's law just like the Pharisees whom Our Lord condemned.
Great post mga and welcome to the tank! ...........and on that note, I wonder who else sees this for what it is, a "mock-mass". Now before all the NO supporters blow a blood vessel, watch the video of the TLM for what it is, then watch the NO as though it were mocking the TLM and I think you'll see what I mean. Since I have only assisted at the TLM all my life and only attended one NO (funeral) mass since about 1970ish, the mockery is acutely more obvious than perhaps for those who frequent the NO and have no need to even watch what they've long ago accepted and already see regularly, but I think if it is viewed as a mockery, that is exactly what will be seen - and yes, it is horrifying to say the least. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
It is the Mass that matters.
But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. -Apocalypse 3:16
|
|
|
Parmandur
Member
Gender:
Posts: 3,360
|
|
« Reply #239 on: March 21, 2012, 12:59:PM » |
|
Repeatedly posting the same video of perfectly valid Masses and calling them a mockery does not make it so. The Lord Jesus Christ is present in Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity in the NO video you posted. You are the one mocking Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
