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Author Topic: Is the New Mass Displeasing to God when it is Valid?  (Read 8594 times)
GottmitunsAlex
"As the head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise. The Jews have not recognized Our Lord; therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people." Pope St. Pius X
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« Reply #330 on: April 07, 2012, 04:38:PM »

We use the statistics to show precisely when the overwhelming apostasy took off - and guess what!?  It all began in the late 60's and early 70's when the new religion usurped.  From exactly that point on the statistics show not a minor, but a MAJOR change in the belief structure in those who claim to be "Catholics.  The upward curve of the statistical arc doesn't shoot to the sky until that time period (or drop to the floor, depending on how you look at it).

Just a quick comment to maybe lead the discussion in a new direction. I find it it interesting that you're adamantly claiming statistics prove your point but aren't revealing any numbers.  Can you provide the data to back up your claims? Raw numbers would be better than biased articles with bits and pieces of unproven data thrown in. 

Also, if you really want to fairly support your point you would also need to show data from at least the 40's and 50's in order to prove that the decline in Catholicism BEGAN in the 60's with the implementation of the Novus Ordo Mass and not before.

Anyway, just a thought. I'm not even sure that these numbers exist.  But you've been claiming that the statistics show a major change in belief structure so I thought I'd ask.  Otherwise, claiming that statistics are on your side is just another emotional response.  I'll go back to observing now. 
Data? Check the numbers for annulments after 1968 compared to pre-vatican 2 numbers.
That's just one of the dozens of factual demonstrations that depict the decline in Catholicism post V2.
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"Nothing is more miserable than those people who never failed to attack their own salvation. When there was need to observe the Law, they trampled it under foot. Now that the Law has ceased to bind, they obstinately strive to observe it. What could be more pitiable that those who provoke God not only by transgressing the Law but also by keeping it? But at any rate the Jews say that they, too, adore God. God forbid that I say that. No Jew adores God! Who say so? The Son of God say so. For he said: "If you were to know my Father, you would also know me. But you neither know me nor do you know my Father". Could I produce a witness more trustworthy than the Son of God?"  St. John Chrysostom Sunday Homily
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« Reply #331 on: April 07, 2012, 06:55:PM »

We use the statistics to show precisely when the overwhelming apostasy took off - and guess what!?  It all began in the late 60's and early 70's when the new religion usurped.  From exactly that point on the statistics show not a minor, but a MAJOR change in the belief structure in those who claim to be "Catholics.  The upward curve of the statistical arc doesn't shoot to the sky until that time period (or drop to the floor, depending on how you look at it).

Just a quick comment to maybe lead the discussion in a new direction. I find it it interesting that you're adamantly claiming statistics prove your point but aren't revealing any numbers.  Can you provide the data to back up your claims? Raw numbers would be better than biased articles with bits and pieces of unproven data thrown in. 

Also, if you really want to fairly support your point you would also need to show data from at least the 40's and 50's in order to prove that the decline in Catholicism BEGAN in the 60's with the implementation of the Novus Ordo Mass and not before.

Anyway, just a thought. I'm not even sure that these numbers exist.  But you've been claiming that the statistics show a major change in belief structure so I thought I'd ask.  Otherwise, claiming that statistics are on your side is just another emotional response.  I'll go back to observing now. 
Data? Check the numbers for annulments after 1968 compared to pre-vatican 2 numbers.
That's just one of the dozens of factual demonstrations that depict the decline in Catholicism post V2.


No doubt. But again, that does not prove that the crisis BEGAN with the institution of the NO Mass. It's certainly an effect of it, but can you prove that it is the beginning and sole cause?
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"Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, I offer You the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the sacrileges, outrages and indifference by which He Himself is offended. And through the infinite merits of His most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of you the conversion of poor sinners."
Phillipus Iacobus
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« Reply #332 on: April 07, 2012, 07:06:PM »

It can be sometimes problematic to do a "when did this all begin" because that can keep going backwards.
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Guardian
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« Reply #333 on: April 07, 2012, 07:17:PM »

It can be sometimes problematic to do a "when did this all begin" because that can keep going backwards.

But that's my point. Yes the Church has been weakened by the NO Mass and Priests not preaching the faith etc etc. But you can't pin point an exact moment and ignore the years leading up to it. The institution of the NO Mass was a drastic change to the Mass and is part of the problem. But its not the end all be all root cause. There's a lot more to Vatican II than just the Mass.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 07:32:PM by Guardian » Logged

"Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, I offer You the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the sacrileges, outrages and indifference by which He Himself is offended. And through the infinite merits of His most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of you the conversion of poor sinners."
Phillipus Iacobus
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« Reply #334 on: April 07, 2012, 07:20:PM »

It can be sometimes problematic to do a "when did this all begin" because that can keep going backwards.

But that's my point. Yes the Church has been weakened by the NO Mass and Priests not preaching the faith etc etc. But you can't pin point an exact moment and ignore the years leading up to it. The institution of the NO Mass was a drastic change to the Mass and is part of the problem. But its not the end all be all. There's a lot more to Vatican II than just the Mass.

The entire NO/VII revolution, for the most part, comes down to two questions at least for me:
Can the Church give error? Can the Churh give evil?
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Stubborn
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« Reply #335 on: April 08, 2012, 08:51:AM »

It can be sometimes problematic to do a "when did this all begin" because that can keep going backwards.

But that's my point. Yes the Church has been weakened by the NO Mass and Priests not preaching the faith etc etc. But you can't pin point an exact moment and ignore the years leading up to it. The institution of the NO Mass was a drastic change to the Mass and is part of the problem. But its not the end all be all root cause. There's a lot more to Vatican II than just the Mass.

Destroy the Mass, destroy the Church - there is absolutely no way the crisis would have taken control if the Mass was left alone. It HAD to be done away with for many reasons, same as it had to be replaced with a mockery of it for many reasons, chiefly, to lead people astray - that is what enemies of God do.

When the NOM was "new", people, including clergy, seminarians, nuns etc. were leaving the Church in droves all over the world regardless of what led up to it, it was the change in worship that was the straw that broke the camel's back. History bears witness to this fact.

The entire NO/VII revolution, for the most part, comes down to two questions at least for me:
Can the Church give error? Can the Churh give evil?

Why contemplate on something absolutely and completely out of your control?

Look at what has been done, see it is wrong, *do* what is right - aside from this being our primary obligation, this is well within everyone's capabilities. This is what is needed from us all regardless of "how" it happened.

Back when the NO was perpetrated as more or less a sneak attack, the lethargic masses were easily fooled as history relates - but what excuse will God accept 50 years after the fact, in an era of instant communication where information is instantly available at the click of a mouse and where the enemies and the errors have been discovered and exposed to the entire world many times over for the last 50 years?
 




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It is the Mass that matters.

But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. -Apocalypse  3:16
Phillipus Iacobus
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« Reply #336 on: April 08, 2012, 09:23:AM »

I do recognize it as wrong, and certainly am doing what is right.
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Stubborn
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« Reply #337 on: April 08, 2012, 09:30:AM »

I do recognize it as wrong, and certainly am doing what is right.

Deo Gratias!

This is what God expects from all of us! He does not expect us all to dissect the enemy's inner workings which interweave truth and lies - which ultimately end up leading the majority of us only into complete confusion. 

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It is the Mass that matters.

But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. -Apocalypse  3:16
JoniCath
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« Reply #338 on: April 08, 2012, 09:32:AM »

The answer is of course, yes.

Taken from here: (emphasis in the original)

Sacrifice Offered: Traditional Mass
What is offered: "unspotted host", "chalice of salvation", "sacrifice", "oblation"  (Offertory prayers)
Stated Purpose of the Sacrifice: "for sins", “For all faithful Christians, living and dead", "for salvation unto life everlasting", "for the glory of Thy holy name" (Offertory prayers)
Is the Sacrifice Pleasing to God? Yes, because:  1. It has the approval of years of Church Tradition, and  2. It clearly expresses the true purpose of an act of worship, namely that man give glory to God.

I would like to take the time to answer this complete post, but need to get Easter dinner started so I'll just answer it as the day goes by, bit by bit:
  WHO is offered at the TLM: Christ, HImself
  Purpose of the Sacrifice: To appease an angry God & to open the gates of heaven. Most cannot accept an "angry "God. They prefer to think on a loving God without ANY OTHER emotion. They do not believe in any God other than a Grandfatherly, old Man, don't worry about that sin. I "UNDERSTAND".






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“Be still, and know that I am God” (Psalm 46:10).
Phillipus Iacobus
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« Reply #339 on: April 08, 2012, 09:33:AM »

I do recognize it as wrong, and certainly am doing what is right.

Deo Gratias!

This is what God expects from all of us! He does not expect us all to dissect the enemy's inner workings which interweave truth and lies - which ultimately end up leading the majority of us only into complete confusion. 

He does by expect the impossible.
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