civil weddings question

[little_flower10]

There's something I'm confused about regarding civil weddings... if two non Christians get married in a civil ceremony, are they married in the eyes of God or not? if they then divorce and remarry, would they commit adultery or have they been living in fornication the whole time? What if two Christians get married in a civil ceremony? And finally, what if the two non Christians eventually become Christian but never get re-married in the Church? (for example, if they become Catholic, but could be Orthodox too).

Thanks!

[newyorkcatholic]

It's presumed valid unless one or both is Catholic. In that case they are bound by law to be married in a church or have a dispensation from this.

If they are both baptized, the marriage is sacramental. They cannot "divorce" and would need an annulllment for one to "remarry."

If not both baptized, as soon as they were the marriage would automatically be a sacramental one.

The law on valid non-sacramental marriages is more complex. For example if a Muslim man has two wives and wants to become Catholoc, he canno remain married to both and is encouraged to stay with the first, but this is not absolute. At least in the new law. For example, if his first wife had a terrible relationship with him, was living in another country with another man, and the second wife had a good relationship and was mother to children they were raising together, that could be justification to consider the second wife to be his true wife and have tha marriage regularized.

[Mithrandylan]

It's presumed valid unless one or both is Catholic. In that case they are bound by law to be married in a church or have a dispensation from this.

If they are both baptized, the marriage is sacramental. They cannot "divorce" and would need an annulllment for one to "remarry."

If not both baptized, as soon as they were the marriage would automatically be a sacramental one.

The law on valid non-sacramental marriages is more complex. For example if a Muslim man has two wives and wants to become Catholoc, he canno remain married to both and is encouraged to stay with the first, but this is not absolute. At least in the new law. For example, if his first wife had a terrible relationship with him, was living in another country with another man, and the second wife had a good relationship and was mother to children they were raising together, that could be justification to consider the second wife to be his true wife and have tha marriage regularized.

Hey NYC, a question building off of the last point you made there about someone in a polygamous relationship... Any thoughts on what the church would require of a transsexual who converted to Catholicism?  Say a man becomes a biological woman and then converts... What would be the Church's expectations for a person like this, especially as it pertains to possible marriage? 

[newyorkcatholic]

It's presumed valid unless one or both is Catholic. In that case they are bound by law to be married in a church or have a dispensation from this.

If they are both baptized, the marriage is sacramental. They cannot "divorce" and would need an annulllment for one to "remarry."

If not both baptized, as soon as they were the marriage would automatically be a sacramental one.

The law on valid non-sacramental marriages is more complex. For example if a Muslim man has two wives and wants to become Catholoc, he canno remain married to both and is encouraged to stay with the first, but this is not absolute. At least in the new law. For example, if his first wife had a terrible relationship with him, was living in another country with another man, and the second wife had a good relationship and was mother to children they were raising together, that could be justification to consider the second wife to be his true wife and have tha marriage regularized.

Hey NYC, a question building off of the last point you made there about someone in a polygamous relationship... Any thoughts on what the church would require of a transsexual who converted to Catholicism?  Say a man becomes a biological woman and then converts... What would be the Church's expectations for a person like this, especially as it pertains to possible marriage? 

Depends upon what you mean by transsexual. A man who undergoes the full surgeries to become a "woman" is clearly not able to contract marriage. He would have to marry a woman (as ontologically he is a man) and how could that be consummated?

For someone of unclear gender, or a known geneti gender but abnormal ambiguous genitalia, I suppose it would be case by case. But the fundamental idea of marriage, one man and one woman, consummated, cannot be compromised of course.

[Phillipus Iacobus]

The question does not deal with civil marriage, but what the Church calls natural marriage.

[Stubborn]

There's something I'm confused about regarding civil weddings... if two non Christians get married in a civil ceremony, are they married in the eyes of God or not? if they then divorce and remarry, would they commit adultery or have they been living in fornication the whole time? What if two Christians get married in a civil ceremony? And finally, what if the two non Christians eventually become Christian but never get re-married in the Church? (for example, if they become Catholic, but could be Orthodox too).

Thanks!

Pre V2.................

Assuming two non-Christians means both are infidels (neither have ever been baptized), according to the Church, they are married. The Church has no jurisdiction over the non-baptized but as the only defender of the Sacrament, She does have jurisdiction over both the Contract and Sacrament of Matrimony. She recognizes the contract as valid though not sacramental for many reasons but in a nutshell, the marriage is recognized for the good of society. 

In the case of two Christians getting married in a civil ceremony, the marriage Contract is presumed valid though non-sacramental and if Catholics get married that way, the marriage is still valid though non-sacramental and even sinful or illicit and depending on the situation, things can get quite murky - see a priest.

Some thing to remember is Marriage is made up of two parts, Contract and Sacrament. When vows to remain together "till death" are taken, those vows are what seals the deal on the Contract. Those vows are what God hears, accepts and expects both spouses to remain true too until one of the spouses die, regardless if the marriage was sacramental or not.

It is the Contract that binds, not the Sacrament. Simply put, the purpose of the sacrament is to help the spouses remain true to their vows till death. The Contract needs no priest to be valid as the spouses actually marry themselves, the marriage becomes sacramental when it  gets sanctified by the priest - and only by the priest (or other Catholic cleric) - so any marriage entered into outside of Holy Mother the Church, though non-sacramental is still presumed valid as long as both parties were free to marry in the first place.   

Because Holy Mother the Church is the only defender of the Sacrament, by default She also necessarily guards the Marriage Contract - which is why a marriage is valid even when not sacramental. Converts who married outside the Church  (or even Catholics who did so) seemingly would certainly want to get their marriage sanctified at some point, I do not know, but I don't  think it is absolutely necessary.


As for the conversion of one or both infidels, you may want to look up Pauline Privilege as that opens up a whole different can of worms.

[newyorkcatholic]

Stubborn, do you have a source?  I think if two baptized non Catholics get married it's always sacramental. The priest is only a witness.

The idea that the priest is necessary for the sacrament is the Eastern understanding that Protestants are not bound to.

[Stubborn]

Stubborn, do you have a source?  I think if two baptized non Catholics get married it's always sacramental. The priest is only a witness.

The idea that the priest is necessary for the sacrament is the Eastern understanding that Protestants are not bound to.

Yes, you are right - I am way wrong!

Non-Sacramental marriages only happen when one or both parties are not baptized. Thank you NYC for pointing this out!

[columb]

This sermon from Audio Sancto should be of help.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20070520-Marriage-Rules-on-Marriage-Part-1.html

[Phillipus Iacobus]

Stubborn, do you have a source?  I think if two baptized non Catholics get married it's always sacramental. The priest is only a witness.

The idea that the priest is necessary for the sacrament is the Eastern understanding that Protestants are not bound to.

Yes, you are right - I am way wrong!

Non-Sacramental marriages only happen when one or both parties are not baptized. Thank you NYC for pointing this out!

Yup. Non-sacramentals can be broken if one spouse becomes baptized, correct?