trad environments

[Jacafamala]

I think you answered your own question - in the part I bolded.  The priests at my FSSP parish made very similar comments to the men's group  last October - actually, they were admonitions that I personally found to be very off-putting, at first.  After I gave it more thought, I realized that their comments were based on what they have experienced through much closer and broader contact with probably almost everyone who passes through our parish (in and out of the confessional).  Even though mine is a small parish and I have been very active in the men's group and with the pastoral advisory council, I realize that there are a lot of members that I don't know.  Also, I have personally heard some of these well-intended but misguided comments to visitors regarding ours being a "real mass," thereby displaying a spiritual pride and impolitely inferring a superiority to our guests and 'their mass.'  I definitely believe that is a conclusion you need to let folks arrive at on their own and any attempts to force those opinions in any way have more of a polarizing effect than not.  I realized then also, that if I've heard this happen a few times over the years, these priests have probably heard it many many more times.  Now that I have heard this from Fr. Gaud, Ripperger and my priests, I'm fairly certain these are not isolated incidents but more prevalent than some would like to admit - or would mistakenly attribute to a false sense of charity or fraternal correction.

I think your comment regarding the Baptists is interesting too because I'm sure most all trads would agree that the NO is a 'Protestantized' Catholic service.  So, when NO Catholics first come to try out the TLM, they experience a culture shock.  Walk a mile in their shoes:  they show up dressed 'less-than-appropriately,' perhaps, or without a veil; they don't know when to sit, kneel, stand, beat their breast, sign themselves with the Cross, genuflect, nor the appropriate responses.  If they can get past that awkwardness, then they likely also have to deal with their neighbor's askance looks (perhaps before, during and after mass).  I think that alone can be intimidating enough to turn some away and it does't help that trads are outdone in charity "by a long shot"  - and what's worse is that trads are outdone by those they would insist others believe are certainly going to Hell.

Jacafamala, you and I were (I am assuming by your comments) drawn past 'the problems' by the liturgy, but how many others who may be a little more thin-skinned are shewn away by the prickly personalities they encounter?

As for myself I think I try to avoid disparaging remarks about the Novus Ordo--to the best of my ability... Certainly when I'm in the company of NO-goers, I don't make any cracks. That would be disrespectful.

But if they don't get that there's problems with the NO, then they're not very likely to be attracted to the TLM in the first place; just my opinion. And anyway, it's much harder to be a traditional Catholic, and the ol' vinegar puss on the face of the guy who turns around to look because you got in late and rumpled your pocketbook while searching for your missal is the very least of it... In fact, he cracks me up.  God bless him. What's way harder imo, is trying to really live the Catholic faith. Getting to confession and making a good one like once a month, praying your rosary every day. All the myriad of help that's constantly needed at the chapel just to try and keep things going. So if there's no problem with the NO, why bother? Those days were way easier.

[Gerard]

Wow!  You start off your rant by referring to clergymen as pure idiots, stupid, fools and to their disproportionate nonsense. 

Clergyman are fully capable of idiocy, disproportionate nonsense and stupidity. 

  I guess we should just put them aside and ask you to step up to the pulpit in their stead?

Maybe in terms of content, that would be better.  But if you have to choose to put something aside, make it their nonsense and not your common sense.

Yes, you don’t have to “like” anyone; you have to love everyone.

Clergy are people too.  You don't have to like them and you don't have to pretend that everything they say is wise to love them.

Yes, you don’t have to “attract” any other souls; you have to teach all nations whatsoever Jesus commanded.

Jesus didn't command disproportionate criticism of trad groups, trying to inculcate into them a  sense of shame for doing their best. 

Maybe you should take your own advice and rely a little more on Christ. 

I don't give advice that I don't already take. Maybe priests who have a myopic vision of reality should rely on Christ more and speak less.

I hope you will reflect upon this during Holy Week, that you will exercise a little humility and consider revising your comments.  I sincerely wish you a blessed Holy Week.

Implicit in your statement is an accusation of arrogance where there is none.   It's not arrogant to disagree with a clergyman who is ridiculously unfair to the people that need, and support him.  Nobody's asking him to shower them with compliments, but the unfair beating down of trads  is not welcome from trad priests.   There's enough Novus Ordo and non-Catholic people to do that.   And they do it because they are evil, not because trad women don't dress well enough for them or don't watch TV.

[Vetus Ordo]

The only thing you have to know about clergy, trad and non-trad alike, is what ultimately matters to them: money. In the end, and moralisms aside, that's what keeps everything running smoothly.

As long as there's money in the parish, the mission, the institute, the school, etc., you name it, it's all okay. If the money's gone, no amount of appeals to charity will do. "Friends and benefactors" indeed.

[Jacafamala]

That's not really fair, Vetus.

[Warrenton]

Implicit in your statement is an accusation of arrogance where there is none.   It's not arrogant to disagree with a clergyman who is ridiculously unfair to the people that need, and support him.  Nobody's asking him to shower them with compliments, but the unfair beating down of trads  is not welcome from trad priests.   There's enough Novus Ordo and non-Catholic people to do that.   And they do it because they are evil, not because trad women don't dress well enough for them or don't watch TV.

Yes.  Moreover, these sermons are impractical.  Am I supposed to wear my sleeveless undershirt to mass on Maundy Thursday?  (that is, without another shirt over it). 

If we're saying mean things, just tell us:  "don't say unkind things to visitors."

If we are in a chapel or church with many newcomers, just tell them "relax, watch the mass, don't worry about the responses and the postures yet."  That's a good topic for a sermon, or the ushers (if any) should be saying that.  I don't know any
integriste" who has ever brought a friend or family member to mass and said "better wear a business suit, and for cryinoutloud kneel when everyone else does or I'm ditching you." 

As far as living in the 1950s, thanks Father, but I should be so lucky.  Again, what does he think I supposed to do?  Hit up the next key party?  Cultivate a taste for cocaine?  Dance the macarena?   

Half of the combined opus of Belloc and Chesterton could be synopsized: "Catholics must be a people set apart."  This is a variation of the city set upon a hill.  Mother Theresa brought the untouchables out of the gutter.  She did not send her sisters to live in the gutter. 

[kingtheoden]

There is a rather substantial gulf between this article and the other sermon that was essentially a 20 minute long diatribe against TLM community per se.

The Priest in this article is advising on how he believes one is to win souls, which is to be our mission.  I disagree on viewing dress as a 'divisive' or 'prideful' subject necessarily.  People who wear casual house clothes probably would spring for a tie if they were to meet 'someone important' so emphasizing proper dress is important.  Indeed, there is a prudent manner of doing this, and we do want to be inviting to people.

Respectfully, BTI, there is nothing hypocritical about rejecting a completely impractical and objectively wrong lashing that accuses those simply following the Eternal Church to be, at the root, gnostics, sex addicts, and the proud.  That 'traditional Catholicism' sort of pulses out these evils which then corrupt lilly Novus Ordoites. 

The article in this case is clearly different in its tone, approach, and judgement.

[Vetus Ordo]

That's not really fair, Vetus.

If there's something I make a point about is not living in "La-la land."

That money is one of the most, if not the most, fundamental item when evaluating the parish life, the religious school life, etc., is obvious to anyone who doesn't think of the clergy and the Church as a mythical congregation of saints.

First comes the worldly preoccupations, then the heavenly.

[GottmitunsAlex]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYLxGE8isqI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYLxGE8isqI</a>

[formerbuddhist]

I'm a really guarded person anyway so nothing really fazes me a trad chapels. I simply don't talk to anyone or let my eyes wander. I never expect friendliness from people whether at chapels or not. I'm there for the Mass, period, close the book. If someone dresses in a tee shirt and jeans the way I see it is that at least they are at the Mass and it is probably the job of the priest to bring up clothing norms anyway. Both the culture in the Church and outside is sick so we can't expect everyone to have it all figured out the first time they come to a TLM. Maybe these folks after having come to love the Mass will start dressing better in the future. And as for the so called sourpusses they exist everywhere, not just a chapels. I'm sure all of us have dealt with jerk bosses, jackass coworkers, rude waitresses, etc. It's not just a trad chapel thing, at least I don't think it is.

[Jacafamala]

The only thing you have to know about clergy, trad and non-trad alike, is what ultimately matters to them: money. In the end, and moralisms aside, that's what keeps everything running smoothly.

As long as there's money in the parish, the mission, the institute, the school, etc., you name it, it's all okay. If the money's gone, no amount of appeals to charity will do. "Friends and benefactors" indeed.

If that were true, they'd have become corporate lawyers or something else. Look, I'm not saying money isn't important. Just that it's not ultimately the most important thing for any decent priest.