Strange views for a Catholic.

[Vetus Ordo]

"And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them."

“The Lord Himself also says in the Gospel: ‘If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.’ Surely He does not mean that they have no sin, when they are full of many great sins, but He wishes us to know that, if He had not come, they would not have had this sin of having heard Him and not having believed in Him. He protests that they lack the excuse which would let them say: ‘We have not heard, therefore we have not believed.’ […] And although they think they have an excuse, God does not accept this excuse, because He knows that He made man right and gave him a commandment to obey, and that this sin, which passed upon his descendants, came from his having made a bad use of his free will. And we cannot say that those who have not sinned are damned, since that first sin passed upon all from one, in whom all sinned together before they committed any separate sins of their own. […] If their excuse were valid, it would not be grace but justice that redeemed them. But, since only grace redeems man, it finds nothing just in him whom it redeems, neither will, nor act, nor, least of all, that excuse, for if it were a just excuse the one using it would not truly be redeemed by grace.” (Letter 194, to St. Sixtus)

“But even the ignorance, which is not theirs who refuse to know, but theirs who are, as it were, simply ignorant, does not so far excuse any one as to exempt him from the punishment of eternal fire, though his failure to believe has been the result of his not having at all heard what he should believe; but probably only so far as to mitigate his punishment. For it was not said without reason: ‘Pour out Thy wrath upon the nations that have not known Thee;’ nor again according to what the apostle says: ‘When He shall come from heaven in a flame of fire to take vengeance on them that know not God.’” (Grace and Free Will 5)

“They who are not liberated through grace, either because they are not yet able to hear or because they are unwilling to obey; or again because they did not receive, at the time when they are unable on account of youth to hear, that bath of regeneration, which they might have received and through which they might have been saved, are indeed justly condemned; because they are not without sin, either that which they have derived from their birth, or that which they have added from their own misconduct. ‘For all have sinned’ - whether in Adam or in themselves – ‘and come short of the glory of God.’” (Nature and Grace 4)

“If, according to the word of truth, no one is delivered from the condemnation which was incurred through Adam except through faith in Jesus Christ, and yet from this condemnation they shall not deliver themselves who shall be able to say that they have not heard the gospel of Christ, on the ground that ‘faith cometh by hearing,’ how much less shall they deliver themselves who shall say, “We have not received perseverance!” For the excuse of those who say, “We have not received hearing,” seems more equitable than that of those who say, “We have not received perseverance;” since it may be said, O man, in that which thou hadst heard and kept, in that thou mightest persevere if thou wouldest; but in no wise can it be said, That which thou hadst not heard thou mightest believe if thou wouldest.  And, consequently, both those who have not heard the gospel, and those who, having heard it and been changed by it for the better, have not received perseverance, and those who, having heard the gospel, have refused to come to Christ, that is, to believe on Him - since He Himself says, ‘No man cometh unto me, except it were given him of my Father,’ - and those who by their tender age were unable to believe, but might be absolved from original sin by the sole laver of regeneration, and yet have not received this laver, and have perished in death: are not made to differ from that lump which it is plain is condemned, as all go from one into condemnation. Some are made to differ, however, not by their own merits, but by the grace of the Mediator; that is to say, they are justified freely in the blood of the second Adam.” (On Correction and Grace 11-12)

[TrentCath]

"And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them."

“The Lord Himself also says in the Gospel: ‘If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.’ Surely He does not mean that they have no sin, when they are full of many great sins, but He wishes us to know that, if He had not come, they would not have had this sin of having heard Him and not having believed in Him. He protests that they lack the excuse which would let them say: ‘We have not heard, therefore we have not believed.’ […] And although they think they have an excuse, God does not accept this excuse, because He knows that He made man right and gave him a commandment to obey, and that this sin, which passed upon his descendants, came from his having made a bad use of his free will. And we cannot say that those who have not sinned are damned, since that first sin passed upon all from one, in whom all sinned together before they committed any separate sins of their own. […] If their excuse were valid, it would not be grace but justice that redeemed them. But, since only grace redeems man, it finds nothing just in him whom it redeems, neither will, nor act, nor, least of all, that excuse, for if it were a just excuse the one using it would not truly be redeemed by grace.” (Letter 194, to St. Sixtus)

“But even the ignorance, which is not theirs who refuse to know, but theirs who are, as it were, simply ignorant, does not so far excuse any one as to exempt him from the punishment of eternal fire, though his failure to believe has been the result of his not having at all heard what he should believe; but probably only so far as to mitigate his punishment. For it was not said without reason: ‘Pour out Thy wrath upon the nations that have not known Thee;’ nor again according to what the apostle says: ‘When He shall come from heaven in a flame of fire to take vengeance on them that know not God.’” (Grace and Free Will 5)

“They who are not liberated through grace, either because they are not yet able to hear or because they are unwilling to obey; or again because they did not receive, at the time when they are unable on account of youth to hear, that bath of regeneration, which they might have received and through which they might have been saved, are indeed justly condemned; because they are not without sin, either that which they have derived from their birth, or that which they have added from their own misconduct. ‘For all have sinned’ - whether in Adam or in themselves – ‘and come short of the glory of God.’” (Nature and Grace 4)

“If, according to the word of truth, no one is delivered from the condemnation which was incurred through Adam except through faith in Jesus Christ, and yet from this condemnation they shall not deliver themselves who shall be able to say that they have not heard the gospel of Christ, on the ground that ‘faith cometh by hearing,’ how much less shall they deliver themselves who shall say, “We have not received perseverance!” For the excuse of those who say, “We have not received hearing,” seems more equitable than that of those who say, “We have not received perseverance;” since it may be said, O man, in that which thou hadst heard and kept, in that thou mightest persevere if thou wouldest; but in no wise can it be said, That which thou hadst not heard thou mightest believe if thou wouldest.  And, consequently, both those who have not heard the gospel, and those who, having heard it and been changed by it for the better, have not received perseverance, and those who, having heard the gospel, have refused to come to Christ, that is, to believe on Him - since He Himself says, ‘No man cometh unto me, except it were given him of my Father,’ - and those who by their tender age were unable to believe, but might be absolved from original sin by the sole laver of regeneration, and yet have not received this laver, and have perished in death: are not made to differ from that lump which it is plain is condemned, as all go from one into condemnation. Some are made to differ, however, not by their own merits, but by the grace of the Mediator; that is to say, they are justified freely in the blood of the second Adam.” (On Correction and Grace 11-12)

 

And you are trying to do what here? Make yourself more like Jansen or Luther?

[Vetus Ordo]

You have an exquisite way to debate and exchange arguments, TrentCath.

Are you like this in real life too?

[Old Salt]

A Popes words. when he teaches from the Ordinary Magisterium. carry a lot more weight than even the great St Augustine words
[understatement]

[Vetus Ordo]

Sure, and who cares about Scripture too? All you need is the positive outpourings of a few popes and truth has been "revealed." I have come to know that you actually believe that people are saved without faith in Christ. Incredible! This couldn't be more absurd and contrary to the gospel. I mean, what's exactly your problem with Vatican II again?

Enlightening exchange, indeed.

[Scriptorium]

It is a doctrine based on who your parents were, where you live, who you've talked to, the conditions of your society, etc. All of which have nothing to do with a soul's correspondence to God's grace, but with conditions for spreading information over the earth. Of course, if indeed Christ's work of salvation was only limited to people who received this information, and only then received baptism, then we can rightly say that Christ's work on the cross was for naught for so so many folks. Think about how even now with all of our communication the gospel is not known at all by a good number of people. The universality of the Church would even demand that the saving power of Christ would not be limited to visible members. The big question is not about demoting the Church, but about demoting Christ, as though He is limited to the visible members of the Church. The Church is not the whole Christ but His Mystical Body. The Church is the special and unique vehicle of communicating grace amongst men as they are interacting with other men. This does not limit Christ from interacting directly with man when no man is present to transmit the gospel. That is precisely what is being supported -- that Christ can operate amongst men directly and grant salvation to men directly without the assistance of any professing Christians.

[Old Salt]

Sure, and who cares about Scripture too? All you need is the positive outpourings of a few popes and truth has been "revealed." I have come to know that you actually believe that people are saved without faith in Christ. Incredible! This couldn't be more absurd and contrary to the gospel. I mean, what's exactly your problem with Vatican II again?

Enlightening exchange, indeed.

And you have proven yet again that your ideas on this matter are more in line with Calvinism and presbyterians I have heard, even some Baptists.

Bottom line is the Church has always and everywhere taught that one may be saved if he has never heard the Gospel message ordinarily proclaimed.

[Stubborn]

Sure, and who cares about Scripture too? All you need is the positive outpourings of a few popes and truth has been "revealed." I have come to know that you actually believe that people are saved without faith in Christ. Incredible! This couldn't be more absurd and contrary to the gospel. I mean, what's exactly your problem with Vatican II again?

Enlightening exchange, indeed.

You're pretty strange Vetus! I mean, what's the deal with you professing the truth on a public forum anyway!  EENS is a beaten to death topic that keeps the faithful seeking Him and the self proclaimed charitable rewarding salvation without Him.

Wouldn't it be nice to get along for the sake of fellowship and simply let those who declare themselves merciful assume the role of judge and reward the ignorant?

[Scriptorium]

Also keep in mind that numerous theologians, including Ott, have this dogma as theologically certain:

God gives all innocent unbelievers (infideles negativi) sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation.


Such a statement on its face implies:

1) These people are innocent. That is, they operate from a position of having not positively rejected Christ or His Church.
2) They, however, do not believe, or rather, do not have faith.
3) A sufficient grace means that it has the ability to save. It isn't hypothetical. Each innocent unbeliever has a chance to be saved.
4) If they reposnd to these graces, they achieve salvation. Not limbo, but salvation.

[TrentCath]

You have an exquisite way to debate and exchange arguments, TrentCath.

Are you like this in real life too?

No, but then in real life I don't bump into people who decide that everyones wrong except themselves or if I do the conversations quickly terminated because there is little point in talking to such people.